System Setup, Square One, Kenwood TK-840s

[bboyd]

Hello All,
Let me first start by saying I have very little knowledge of the radio world but am very interested in learning. I do have a pretty good grasp on computers and hope I can get the same grasp on radios.

We have a fairly large trucking company where we have 70 Kenwood TK-840s in service and I am paying entirely way too much for them on a monthly basis. I am looking at getting some assistance to begin phasing out our radios from the service provider and going about it on my own.

At the office we have a 100w booster with no-loss coax which can reach a pretty good distance.

I am trying to get it to where we can use our radios pretty much anywhere without having to rent all this tower space and such. A guy that installed the radios many years ago said that he had a way for us to use our radios all across the state without the need for the monthly service that we had. And I can not remember the guys name or contact information for he was a contractor for the company we bought the system from. But I hope his knowledge is shared among you all.

I understand the FCC license and Frequency Coordination. But what all must I do AFTER I have my frequency to get all this set up??

Thank you in advance for all your help!
-bboyd

 

[baycomm]

Not a chance, unless you can figure out a way to alter the laws of physics. Even in the smallest states there is not a single site that will cover statewide.

Also, The TK-840 radios are not narrowband compliant. As of this January the FCC is no longer issuing wideband licenses. Your only option is to use them on an already licensed system. As of Jan 2013 they will need to be replaced.

Just curious, how much are you being charged per radio?

 

[b7spectra]

Lo Band has a better range. Also, why not cell phones?

 

[bboyd]

baycomm- I didn't think there was a way but I shook my head and agreed with him saying it would be a great idea. I think were going to keep with the service we are using now and begin converting to some new equipment to satisfy the government. I'm paying $25 per radio, per month, which isn't a whole lot of money but a dollar is a dollar.

b7spectra- truck drivers around here you have to hold their hand thru every little thing including reimbursing them for minutes etc if they use their personal phones or providing them with a company phone which if they get terminated they will not return, tear up, or call every 900 number they can get their hands on for a "good time"

Do y'all recommend any new set of systems that are out there.? Something that would be easy to use driving down the road. From my research it seems all digital is the best and what everyone is lusting after.

 

[TampaTyron]

As someone who designs, installs, and maintains both small and large radio networks, I would also be interested in any other details you would be willing to provide. In order to achieve wide area coverage, you are looking at several tower sites OR satellite OR cellular. No way around it (unless you want to do HF mobile, but that has a very specific set of limited uses and is expensive). Please keep in mind that you may already have the most cost effective solution (minus replacing your entire radio fleet in less than 2 years!). TT

 

[SteveC0625]

What state are you located in? It might also be good to know of you own those radios outright or if you lease them from your service provider.

Same for the 100 watt booster at your base. Owned or leased? Is it the same mobile as in the trucks with booster added? Or is it a different radio with 100 watt power?

Do you have a shared frequency with other customers of the radio service? And who holds the FCC license?

A bit more on the FCC narrowband mandate: You are required to have all of your radios switched over to narrowband on or before 1/1/13. That means the new gear has to be procured and installed in the next 23 1/2 months. That alone may be a major challenge as it is highly likely that vendor lead times may not accommodate everyone who wants to buy new radios in time to meet the deadline.

If you are leasing your radios and your provider holds the license, he is required to take care of all of this prior to 1/1/13.

 

[SteveC0625]

Do y'all recommend any new set of systems that are out there.? Something that would be easy to use driving down the road. From my research it seems all digital is the best and what everyone is lusting after.

There seems to be a lot of "you need to go digital" mindset out there, particularly among sales folk that just want to sell the more expensive radios.

Truth is, there is no requirement to go digital to satisfy the narrowband mandate. Conventional narrowband will work just fine for a large number of existing systems for quite some time to come.

 

[Michael-SATX]

bboyd, I've talked to some towing companies that pay $40 per radio per month to a company named
Industrial Communications in SATX to use their LTR Standard Trunking Network with Multiple towers.
I say $25 seems VERY reasonable ... so maybe let the conversion be on their backs not yours ?

 

[bboyd]

What state are you located in? It might also be good to know of you own those radios outright or if you lease them from your service provider.

Same for the 100 watt booster at your base. Owned or leased? Is it the same mobile as in the trucks with booster added? Or is it a different radio with 100 watt power?

Do you have a shared frequency with other customers of the radio service? And who holds the FCC license?

A bit more on the FCC narrowband mandate: You are required to have all of your radios switched over to narrowband on or before 1/1/13. That means the new gear has to be procured and installed in the next 23 1/2 months. That alone may be a major challenge as it is highly likely that vendor lead times may not accommodate everyone who wants to buy new radios in time to meet the deadline.

If you are leasing your radios and your provider holds the license, he is required to take care of all of this prior to 1/1/13.

We are in rural North Texas.. around Denton..We own all the equipment, my family has a serious control issue problem when it come to property, we tried the lease thing before with radios, trucks, buildings,etc and it is always something and we fill as if we have absolutely no control on whats going on. With aspect to the radios we were leasing about 10 for a short time while this new(old) system was being installed on the new trucks we had coming in, and I kept finding out that the radio guys would come out to the yard and get in the trucks and be jacking with those radios we had leased for no reason, they kept saying "it was their property and they can look at them whenever" but that dosn't fly when your on MY LAND in MY TRUCK(S) that cost a lot more than the $700 radio.

We have our own private frequency

FCC license is held thru the service provider.

 

[bboyd]

There seems to be a lot of "you need to go digital" mindset out there, particularly among sales folk that just want to sell the more expensive radios.

Truth is, there is no requirement to go digital to satisfy the narrowband mandate. Conventional narrowband will work just fine for a large number of existing systems for quite some time to come.

what would you recommend radio wise to keep it simple and purchase a system that they will not implement another mandate in 3 years??

 

[TampaTyron]

Smart money is to find an LTR or Community Repeater provider that you could lease space (ltr talkgroup or specific PL) on a per tower/per month basis. I am not sure if you have a couple of towers in your radios now, but LTR is the most economical for of trunking out there. Also, prepaid Boost cell phone are popular with the cabbie/contractor crowd down here, but that may not ork for you. You will need to replace the radios (another kenwood is just a bracket change), motorola or icom would be a bracket, power cord, and cable connector change. Could you share your channel line up (ie, what the channels are calle din your radios?) Digital only makes sense if someone is willing to bite off $ 750-1000 per radio and $XX per month for radio. It only really makes sense here for multisite connected operation or tall buildings (extension of multisite).TT

 

[SteveC0625]

what would you recommend radio wise to keep it simple and purchase a system that they will not implement another mandate in 3 years??

The FCC mandate for narrowband began in the early 1990's and ended up with a final implementation date of 1/1/2013. There a vague plan for an even narrower narrowband, but no formal plans on the table at this time. The FCC admits that another change like this would be at least 10 years or more down the road.

So conventional narrowband could still be a good choice for you if you wanted to maintain the system you have now, ie. a single 100 watt base station and your 40 watt mobiles.

It is still unclear to me what your $25/month per radio is buying you. Are they selling you space on a community repeater of some kind? Or are they simply charging you to use a frequency for which they hold the license?

Does your base radio talk directly to your mobiles or does it through some system (probably a repeater) owned by your provider?

 

[bboyd]

The FCC mandate for narrowband began in the early 1990's and ended up with a final implementation date of 1/1/2013. There a vague plan for an even narrower narrowband, but no formal plans on the table at this time. The FCC admits that another change like this would be at least 10 years or more down the road.

So conventional narrowband could still be a good choice for you if you wanted to maintain the system you have now, ie. a single 100 watt base station and your 40 watt mobiles.

It is still unclear to me what your $25/month per radio is buying you. Are they selling you space on a community repeater of some kind? Or are they simply charging you to use a frequency for which they hold the license?

Does your base radio talk directly to your mobiles or does it through some system (probably a repeater) owned by your provider?

I really would like to keep the same type of system I have and for sure do not want to spend money on a bunch of NEW NEW radios. The $25 is being used to lease (i guess) tower space on a couple different towers in different counties, about 10 i believe at this time, and prob for the use of the frequency for we do not have our own in our name.

 

[RKG]

No offense intended, but given how little you know about your existing system, you are not going to get very reliable advice long distance, sight unseen, via a site like this. You should see if someone whose judgment you trust can point you to a qualified, reputable radio technician in your area, who could take a look at what you have and listen to what you want to be able to do and then present you with the available options.

 

[TampaTyron]

$25 per radio for 10 towers! Wow you are getting a good deal! Not joking..........TT