The 8000 dollar Motorola HT/s. Why?

[TLF82]

If you want a bleeding edge of technology radio that can do everything that is the bleeding edge of technology... It's going to cost some serious money.

I own an APX 7000, it's an amazing radio. Blows any of my other Moto's (XTL/XTS, XPR, etc) out of the water.

 

[com501]

My friends laugh at me because I have four 6-unit gang chargers in my home office. But when someone needs to borrow one of my APX's or XTS5k's, I have enough spares to go around.

My second 8000 will arrive before the end of the month. December I swap out XTLs for APX dual band units in both of my vehicles. Two, in each vehicle. Radios are still cheaper than teenagers.

 

[phillydjdan]

I own an APX 7000, it's an amazing radio. Blows any of my other Moto's (XTL/XTS, XPR, etc) out of the water.

Couldn't agree more. I love mine. In my area we have a bunch of P25 systems with LSM issues and while all the scanner people are struggling and pulling their hair out I'm sitting back relaxing. Sometimes if you are committed to the hobby you have to invest in tools and not toys...

 

[Voyager]

Lets see what goes into making a really expensive radio.

R&D
Prototyping
Testing & more testing
Revisions
GOLDEN
Manuals
FCC
Pre Sales
Production
Assembly and QC
Packaging & Shipping.

You forgot:
Licensing of the digital protocols and/or vocoders.

 

[Jay911]

I don't have any doubts that any of the steps/stages of putting together a public safety grade two-way radio are costly, but at the same time, I don't buy (hah) the argument that what goes into an APX 8K warrants an $8k-$12k price tag. Yes, a lot of the work that Motorola puts into the radio comes with a price, but I do believe there is a not-so-small amount of "we'll charge $texas because we can, because they'll pay that much" built into each and every unit. In other words, you pay dearly for the batwing logo.

Don't get me wrong - I am in the market for a multi-band radio right now, and if I had a pallet of dollar bills to trade for them, I would snap up the APX8000 in a heartbeat. If I couldn't justify spending five digits on a radio, but still had a pile of money to spend, I would grudgingly give up my ability to talk on my local Smartzone system and get a Harris XL200P. That's pretty much where my options are right now - and before somebody brings up the "front line crews don't need multi-band" argument, half of my response area is in a 700 MHz region, and half is in a VHF region, with no overlap planned.

I do wish these radios didn't cost this much - does anyone think a volunteer FD can raise $350k to outfit its members with portable radios?? - but as I said, some of the blame goes on the consumers for paying what the retailer will demand.

 

[prcguy]

Thanks for the very good snapshot of what goes on to design, manufacture and support a new radio.
Documentation and software/firmware can easily be half the cost of a new product and a new multiband Motorola/Harris/Thales radio has a lot of that.

In the mid 1970s I worked for a very large two way manufacturer and at the time a profit goal was 400%. That means for every dollar spent on parts and labor, we had to bring in $4 or more. I suspect that formula is still good today. I also suspect these new multiband radios are sold in enough quantity that the current price to mfr is a small fraction of the selling price, R&D has been paid back and the current cost is based more on what someone will pay and not what it actually cost to mfr.
prcguy

Lets see what goes into making a really expensive radio. Just a quickie simplistic run down.

R&D ( research and development - proving concept - circuit board design, layout, case durability and IS factors, etc.) TIME & MONEY ditto for the rest.

Prototyping - proving circuit board layout and all electronics play nice in the form factor (case design) and firmware / software enhancements required for the new hardware set.

Testing & more testing - A number of engineering units are lab tested in lab and in the field to see what hardware, firmware and software faults, bugs, etc rear there heads.And the repeated trouble tickets of issues are attacked by the engineers.

Revisions - see Number 3 and repeat as necessary. The more complex the hardware/firmware/software this can and will happen a lot.And a lot more once in the field and new user bugs come to light.

GOLDEN - Everything in the lab & from field testings seems to work and play well and stable and all is sort of locked in.

Manuals - service manuals - user manuals and all other product guides, sales brochures are designed and set.

FCC - production radios sent to FCC for all necessary certifications.

Pre Sales - Units shown & demoed to customers

Production - All manufacturing sites are set up, all electronic components brought in for the circuit board assembly and all other items for production start up.

Assembly and QC - this should be self explanatory.

Packaging & Shipping. - Takes warehousing, people and time

This all doesn’t happen overnight. ( yes, there is a great big book of radios that they pick and choose and bang, zoom instant overpriced radio)
Many months or a year, maybe more.
A whole lot of people are involved in house and out. A lot time ( MONEY). Deadlines. All specialty electronic components whether designed for the specific unit or off the shelf have to be procured or ordered.
Coders to write, debug, revise firmware/software. ( TIME & MONEY)

Then you have the overhead for the manufacturing sites and equipment and support personnel ( wages and all that goes with that process).

Motorola isn’t making a cheap, minimalist HT like the Chinese slap it together with the cheapest components and put anyone's name on the case. I wouldn't trust any of those cheap plastic toys ( yes, the designs on all these radios look like Fisher Price designed them, ever see a Moto, Harris with a flashlight? FM stereo headphone output?) in a heavy mission intensive environment like SAR, fires, chemical spills, battlefields, SWAT operations, on the waterways, temperature extremes, drops, vehicles running em over and more. ALL radios have there faults. But I have used Motorola in a few very intense situations in my life and it never, ever let me down. I sure as hell would never rely on anything else. YMMV.

The EXPENSIVE, High quality, highly durable, highly reliable feature rich radios that are DESIGNED for Public Safety, Military and other operations that require the best period and get what they pay for, whether it’s Moto, Harris or whoever.

The prices are steep, yes, BUT they AREN’T DESIGNED for HOBBYIST, the HAM though I have known hams who bought new System Sabers, Astro Sabers and the APX’s just because they wanted them and had cash burning a hole in the pocket. A status symbol to show off, bragging rights and a manhood extender.

Personally, I think the APX portables are just plug ugly to my eye.

Any organization can buy whatever they want, afford. Yes, Moto is and can be intense selling its stuff. Been there and seen that first hand. If you want a quality piece of kit, you go with field and time tested manufacturer. Someone who can locally support the equipment. Someone who is in this country. Motorola, Harris and others aren't a non profit operation. Sorry, there a money making operation that has bills, property and other taxes, properties and its upkeep many, many employees, state of the art testing and manufacturing equipt, insurance and more.

Maybe LAPD / NYPD/ Chicago, etc should by BaoFeng or whatever 50$ radios and a boatload of toy mic’s and 3$ rapid chargers to save money, screw officer safety, there just a radio it dies just throw it away, especially like in a foot pursuit. Just carry a few extra on your belt. Problem solved cheap and efficient!.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Actually the 8000 dollar portable radio is nothing new.

I've had more than one M/A-Com P7100 radio with every possible option in them. If you were to go by the price book, ordering all those options in one radio would have resulted in a SINGLE BAND portable radio with a list price of around 8000 dollars.

That would be all 40 options, minus option 30 which indicates a limited feature set.

The Harris Falcon series portable radios are around 15K each, or more, depending on which model it is.


Once again, it's not the hardware that costs, it's the MASSIVE amount of engineering, research and development, testing, and improvements that go into making such a complex radio work perfectly in all modes of operation and on all bands.

Sure, at some point you can say "It's a handful of chips on a few circuit boards in a chassis, how much can it cost?" and actually the production costs of that hardware are fairly low. But it cost millions to develop the chips and that money has to be recouped somehow.

Same goes for everything else in the radio.

Experience has shown that radios built to a lesser standard of ruggedness don't last long when police and firefighters are using them every day.

I've personally resurrected not less than two radios that were KNOWN to have been run over by a fire truck or other fire service vehicle.

They take a beating. Engineering them to survive that beating is not simple, easy, cheap, or fast. That costs.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I don't have any doubts that any of the steps/stages of putting together a public safety grade two-way radio are costly, but at the same time, I don't buy (hah) the argument that what goes into an APX 8K warrants an $8k-$12k price tag. Yes, a lot of the work that Motorola puts into the radio comes with a price, but I do believe there is a not-so-small amount of "we'll charge $texas because we can, because they'll pay that much" built into each and every unit. In other words, you pay dearly for the batwing logo.

Don't get me wrong - I am in the market for a multi-band radio right now, and if I had a pallet of dollar bills to trade for them, I would snap up the APX8000 in a heartbeat. If I couldn't justify spending five digits on a radio, but still had a pile of money to spend, I would grudgingly give up my ability to talk on my local Smartzone system and get a Harris XL200P. That's pretty much where my options are right now - and before somebody brings up the "front line crews don't need multi-band" argument, half of my response area is in a 700 MHz region, and half is in a VHF region, with no overlap planned.

I do wish these radios didn't cost this much - does anyone think a volunteer FD can raise $350k to outfit its members with portable radios?? - but as I said, some of the blame goes on the consumers for paying what the retailer will demand.

Average cost of ownership for an iPhone for a 10 year period is $9900...and people afford it.

Many volunteer departments run on hand-me-downs (there is a reason why majority of them are still running analog) but very few of them have a need for a quad band radio. Multi band radios are really marketed at state agencies where there is a need to have all the different systems in a district/region available in a single radio.

 

[Jay911]

Many volunteer departments run on hand-me-downs (there is a reason why majority of them are still running analog) but very few of them have a need for a quad band radio. Multi band radios are really marketed at state agencies where there is a need to have all the different systems in a district/region available in a single radio.

Right now I run three radios in most of my rigs (except the newest one which I put an APX7500 in, so I have 2 radios in that truck). I need UHF 403-430 analog for my own department and some of our mutual aid partners; VHF 138-174 analog for some of our other mutual aid partners; and 800 MHz SmartZone analog for yet another group of partners. If I luck out, all of them will be migrating to a province-wide common radio system which becomes available in about 8 months' time. Odds are probably good some won't go, so I will need to maintain all (or some of) those bands, modulations, and protocols.

And as I mentioned before, the urban/suburban areas I cover are in the 700 MHz (P25 trunked) part of that new system's area, and the rural/mountainous backcountry areas I cover are being served only by VHF (P25 trunked).

I'm lucky enough that the system infrastructure and operational fees are $0 for public safety agencies for this new system. I still have to come up with money for subscriber radios, and for that reason I feel the OP's frustration at the high costs of modern handheld radios. Then again, they are far from the MT1000 bricks that my department bought brand-new the year I joined.

 

[phillydjdan]

You forgot:
Licensing of the digital protocols and/or vocoders.

You forgot kickbacks, too...

 

[prc117f]

Lets see what goes into making a really expensive radio. Just a quickie simplistic run down.

R&D ( research and development - proving concept - circuit board design, layout, case durability and IS factors, etc.) TIME & MONEY ditto for the rest.

Prototyping - proving circuit board layout and all electronics play nice in the form factor (case design) and firmware / software enhancements required for the new hardware set.

Testing & more testing - A number of engineering units are lab tested in lab and in the field to see what hardware, firmware and software faults, bugs, etc rear there heads.And the repeated trouble tickets of issues are attacked by the engineers.

Revisions - see Number 3 and repeat as necessary. The more complex the hardware/firmware/software this can and will happen a lot.And a lot more once in the field and new user bugs come to light.

GOLDEN - Everything in the lab & from field testings seems to work and play well and stable and all is sort of locked in.

Manuals - service manuals - user manuals and all other product guides, sales brochures are designed and set.

FCC - production radios sent to FCC for all necessary certifications.

Pre Sales - Units shown & demoed to customers

Production - All manufacturing sites are set up, all electronic components brought in for the circuit board assembly and all other items for production start up.

Assembly and QC - this should be self explanatory.

Packaging & Shipping. - Takes warehousing, people and time

This all doesn’t happen overnight. ( yes, there is a great big book of radios that they pick and choose and bang, zoom instant overpriced radio)
Many months or a year, maybe more.
A whole lot of people are involved in house and out. A lot time ( MONEY). Deadlines. All specialty electronic components whether designed for the specific unit or off the shelf have to be procured or ordered.
Coders to write, debug, revise firmware/software. ( TIME & MONEY)

Then you have the overhead for the manufacturing sites and equipment and support personnel ( wages and all that goes with that process).

Motorola isn’t making a cheap, minimalist HT like the Chinese slap it together with the cheapest components and put anyone's name on the case. I wouldn't trust any of those cheap plastic toys ( yes, the designs on all these radios look like Fisher Price designed them, ever see a Moto, Harris with a flashlight? FM stereo headphone output?) in a heavy mission intensive environment like SAR, fires, chemical spills, battlefields, SWAT operations, on the waterways, temperature extremes, drops, vehicles running em over and more. ALL radios have there faults. But I have used Motorola in a few very intense situations in my life and it never, ever let me down. I sure as hell would never rely on anything else. YMMV.

The EXPENSIVE, High quality, highly durable, highly reliable feature rich radios that are DESIGNED for Public Safety, Military and other operations that require the best period and get what they pay for, whether it’s Moto, Harris or whoever.

The prices are steep, yes, BUT they AREN’T DESIGNED for HOBBYIST, the HAM though I have known hams who bought new System Sabers, Astro Sabers and the APX’s just because they wanted them and had cash burning a hole in the pocket. A status symbol to show off, bragging rights and a manhood extender.

Personally, I think the APX portables are just plug ugly to my eye.

Any organization can buy whatever they want, afford. Yes, Moto is and can be intense selling its stuff. Been there and seen that first hand. If you want a quality piece of kit, you go with field and time tested manufacturer. Someone who can locally support the equipment. Someone who is in this country. Motorola, Harris and others aren't a non profit operation. Sorry, there a money making operation that has bills, property and other taxes, properties and its upkeep many, many employees, state of the art testing and manufacturing equipt, insurance and more.

Maybe LAPD / NYPD/ Chicago, etc should by BaoFeng or whatever 50$ radios and a boatload of toy mic’s and 3$ rapid chargers to save money, screw officer safety, there just a radio it dies just throw it away, especially like in a foot pursuit. Just carry a few extra on your belt. Problem solved cheap and efficient!.

I got a chuckle when you go from either 8000 dollar radio for police officers if they want a radio to the extreme of 50 dollar radios.

And why even mention Hobbiests/ham radio. Why would they want to buy an APX8000 for 8 Grand when it offers nothing to the table for them.

There is a middle ground, I just cant understand why there is no such thing as a 1000-1500 dollar Trunk radio for public agencies.

These radios are reaching price levels comparable to TSCM equipment, in a couple of years they will probably end up costing as much as Agilent spectrum analysers. at the rate the prices keep going up.

With miniaturization, commodity mass produced chips,radio modules,the cheap Chinese labor used to make this stuff, modern debugging and validation equipment, modern languages and simulation systems to program and design software and cheap H1B/Indian development teams I am a bit suspect.

8-12K for a handheld for just smells of fishy.

1-2K would sound more realistic for a good trunking radio.

A lot of the tech ie Codecs,etc.. is stuff that has been developed years ago.

 

[Citywide173]

There is a middle ground, I just cant understand why there is no such thing as a 1000-1500 dollar Trunk radio for public agencies.

Maybe not the 1000-1500 you specify, but the APX1000 is in the $1600-$1800 range for P25 Trunking. There are also more affordable non-Motorola radios out there that will also meet that requirement. The car analogy above is correct. Consider the APX8000 to be a Cadillac Escalade, and the APX1000 to be a GMC Yukon, while an alternative manufacturer's comparable radio is a Chevy Yukon-same vehicle, just different options, and a VERY different price.

The bottom line is that the Motorola name drives the prices. Anybody in the radio biz (pro or amateur) knows that and accepts it. You're spinning your wheels with your outrage.

 

[Jay911]

There is a middle ground, I just cant understand why there is no such thing as a 1000-1500 dollar Trunk radio for public agencies.

Many vendors have lower-tier radios. As a radio geek who likes bells and/or whistles, I'd be unlikely for settling for a non-display, 48-ch handheld, but almost every vendor has them. Naturally, it's next to impossible to get pricing online since deals are typically made to sell radios with systems or in bundles/deals, but radios in the price neighborhood you describe are available. They just don't have many features.

 

[ElroyJetson]

And why even mention Hobbiests/ham radio. Why would they want to buy an APX8000 for 8 Grand when it offers nothing to the table for them.

Since I'm not currently working in the radio industry, what little use I have for a two way radio is as a high dollar scanner or for amateur radio use.

I'd take an 8000 in a hurry if it was something I could easily afford and get.

I've already owned both an APX7000 and an APX6000. Great radios, I was sad to see them go,
but happy to see the profit I made off them.

They're massive overkill for talking on the local 2 meter repeater, but I'm OK with that.

I'm not a professional photographer, either, but I have several Nikon DSLR cameras and a lot
of lenses, one of those cameras being a 4000 dollar D800 and I have some lenses in the 2000
dollar price range.

I like good stuff. Call it elitism if you want. I have NEVER settled for less when my budget allowed
me to buy superior stuff, and if it's in great shape for a reduced price on the used market, so much the better.

The car I lust after has a 200,000 dollar price tag. Some day I'll have one.

So, yes, I totally see the point of having an APX8000 for amateur radio usage. Particularly if the 700/800 section can be tweaked and opened up to operate on the 900 MHz amateur band with good performance.

I could also see the point of having a Harris PRC-152 or one of its cousins for all amateur band coverage above 30 MHz. Never mind that it'd cost 15K or more.

 

[Anderegg]

The APX8000 is not an $8000 radio, it is a $3000 base radio with $5000 in available options. When I bought my new Camry, it was $21,000 base version, not the $30,000+ one with leather and nav system etc.

There are almost no public safety agencies that need something with all band capability. In southern California, mutual aid on even the same band isn't even utilized with any frequency. (Pun intended!). As a news photographer, I could really find an all band handheld handy, especially in an all band city like Los Angeles. In LA an APX8000 could scan practically all conventional and trunked systems you'd really want, all in one 250 channel scan list. For me personally, I have Motorola 800Mhz trunked handhelds, then XPR's for VHF and UHF. Would be nice to package them all in the same rig, but not for the asking price!

Paul

 

[Citywide173]

In LA an APX8000 could scan practically all conventional and trunked systems you'd really want, all in one 250 channel scan list.

I haven't really delved into the APX features, but I have yet to lay my hands on any Motorola radio that has more than 16 channels av available in a scan list, so I don't think it would meet your need.

 

[mikewazowski]

Lots of Motorola radios had the ability to scan more than 16 channels. The MCX1000 and Maxtrac are two that come to mind.

The APX line will do a conventional scanlist of 30 channels or a multi-system scanlist of 10 conventional channels plus up to 50 talkgroups each from 5 different trunking systems.

Not sure what a single system trunking only scanlist will do but it's probably 50 or more channels.

 

[phillydjdan]

Yes, mine does a whole bunch of channels. I never counted them, but I am able to scan pretty much anything I want to and I'm working with almost a dozen systems.

 

[buddrousa]

As posted from Motorola Site MSRP.
APX 8000 ALL BAND PORTABLE MODEL 1.5 H91TGD9PW5 N 579 $5,459.00
Description Nomenclature APC Price
APX 8000 ALL BAND PORTABLE MODEL 2.5 H91TGD9PW6 N 579 $5,659.00
Description Nomenclature APC Price
APX 8000 ALL BAND PORTABLE MODEL 3.5 H91TGD9PW7 N 579 $5,959.00

Here is the site prices and options start on page 12.
http://www.motorolasolutions.com/content/dam/msi/tennessee/apx8000_pricepages_september2015.pdf

 

[Citywide173]

My issued XTS2500 as well as my personal EX600, HT1550XLS, MTX9250 and CDM1250 are all stunted at 16. Previous Sabers, Maratracs and an STX had the same limitations. It's nice to see they've expanded scanning capability.