SDS100/SDS200: The Art of Filtering

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
4,512
Location
Waco, Texas
Based on what I've read in the so-called "Easier to Read" guide and owner's manual, the descriptive part of using filters on this model are rather sketchy. I read where the filters were added to a firmware update; however, the application of such is rather vague to say the least.

If anyone could please share your knowledge, I would greatly appreciate the help. I have read preferences people have used for trunking and conventional, but it is still not sinking into this "dense" head of mine. When I first looked at "wide" in the nomenclature, I thought of two things: a) wide band; b) wide range.

What in the name of God am I adjusting? I can go through these systems and change them until I find optimal performance for this radio. It would be helpful for me to understand what I'm doing.

Please, keep it simple. If you are kind enough to share complex concepts about filters in general, my eyes will likely glaze over from being entranced.



At present, I turned all filters off.
 

n1chu

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Oct 18, 2002
Messages
2,913
Location
Farmington, Connecticut
I believe the history of these features started with Uniden’s test bench. The filter settings were tools used by the tech’s and weren’t public knowledge. Since the scanner is “software defined”, there are options on how to filter using software. These filters weren’t originally offered to the end user until after numerous observations the scanners weren’t up to par on reception when compared to the BCDx36HP’s. So, Uniden released the filters to the public in the hopes the filters would help. It turned out the new filter settings weren't well documented but that may have been due to the fact the filter settings are highly susceptible to a bunch of variables, the scanner’s geographical location in relation to the comms system you want to monitor was/is a big one.

I’ve found it all comes down to this; “Your Results May Vary”. This to me meant the only way to determine if any of these filter settings are beneficial is to try them one at a time on the system you would like to hear better. And other findings from people for the same system didn’t necessarily work-it could be that the different scanner locations would not have the same effects. Since there are numerous filters, it will take a while to try each filter setting, you would devote a day or two to each setting (unless there was a drastic improvement noticed quickly). And that’s only for one system. You need to repeat the process for additional systems you’d like to see improvements for.

My analysis was to ignore all the filter options and stay with the original setup right-out-of-the-box, before Uniden offered the filters. The filters didn’t do anything for me. But then again, I have no trouble hearing what I want to at home because all the systems I listen to are strong to begin with.
 

Ubbe

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
9,698
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
What in the name of God am I adjusting?
The filter settings are badly named and only confuse. You are adjusting the shift of the 1:st IF filter. When you select Off there's no shift, the filter works as in any other Uniden scanner and pass a frequency range of 10MHz and the wanted signal are in the middle of that frequency range.

The IF filter are attenuating more the more you go from the middle of the pass band to the edges. In a non interfered location you get best performance from the Off setting.

If you select Normal or Invert the filters pass band will shift to the edge of the filters range. It will attenuate the signal more but will pass the whole 10MHz in one frequency direction but hardly anything in the other direction. In Normal it will pass frequencies 10MHz above the one you monitor and hardly nothing from frequencies below the one you monitor. Invert will do the opposite.

The Wide settings will only shift the filter half way to the edges.

If there where a filter that only passed the frequency you monitor you wouldn't need any filter settings at all but that filter would be super expensive, if it even was available to produce. A filter that's 10MHz wide doesn't cost much.

If you have a strong signal a couple of MHz away from the one you are monitoring it wouldn't make any difference to a non SDS scanner but the receiver chip in SDS scanners are sensitive to interferencies and you'll need to block that interfering signal by selecting a filter that will attenuate that signal the most. But if you select Normal or Invert it will block that signal but also open up a 10MHz wide frequency range in the other direction where it could be another signal that interfere. Then you have the Wide selections that only open up half that frequency range and will hopefully block both those interfering signals.

There are two IF filters in SDS scanner, one at about 250MHz and another at about 350MHz. There could be some performance difference between them and usually you shift to the other filter when you select to use IFX to a frequency. Sometimes there isn't any filter setting that will help and neither will IFX. Then enabling Attenuator might be an option, if the wanted signal are strong enough, as the interfering signal will also be attenuated.

The receiver in the SDS scanner models use a very mediocre performing receiver chip that's not at all intended for narrow band scanner use. Its main use are for terestrial TV and satellite reception that use 5-10MHz wide channels and where it is no stronger signals nearby in frequency. Uniden use this $0.85 chip to reduce production costs. It isn't sensitive enough so there's a pre-amplifier used to boost the antenna signal. That will also make it even more sensitive to interferencies and overload issues. The receiver chip has its own amplifier that are self serving and cannot be controlled and will try and reduce interferencies by reducing its gain. The sensor for that detects signals up to 7Mhz away so that a strong signal that wouldn't affect another scanner will in a SDS scanner reduce the overall sensitivity so that you might loose the signal you are monitoring. The sensor and amplifier sits before the filters, to the front end of the receiver, so any setting of filters will not affect that phenomenon. It's one of the results of using a receiver chip designed for 5-10MHz wide channels.

But knowing all the details will probably not help. It is almost impossible to know what filter or IFX to use so it's down to trial and error testing.

/Ubbe
 

trentbob

W3BUX- Bucks County, PA
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
6,248
As briefly as possible. The global filters are used for sampling using real-time results on the radio of performance values. When you find an improvement on a system or conventional object you record the filter then return Global to its default which is normal filter. That filter affects every object on the radio unless you go in and apply another filter on each site of the system or Department options and apply a different filter to a group of conventional items. You can't change the filter on individual conventional channels. You have to pick from Department options.

The reason that you return Global filter to normal is that a new filter might accommodate one system but will compromise performance on other systems that do well on normal. Global should always end up being back on normal unless you've made a specific change on a site of a system or Department options of a group of conventional channels.

Rarely putting Global on no filter at all results in good performance but I guess there might be situational circumstances. Normal Filter Works for most but...

Because you're doing the changes on the radio itself so as to hear real time results of indicators like RSSI, noise level and error rate it's imperative that you hook up to the computer ASAP and transfer the data card to your profile so as to permanently save any changes you made on the radio itself.

It's a good idea to put the filter indicator on your display to help keep track.

An important tip is to avoid auto filters as they sample every filter on every object and slow scanning way down. By default every object is on normal so you already know what that's going to do so you just try wide normal, invert or wide invert on global until you find one that's superior, then put Global back on default normal so as not to compromise objects were normal works well. Lots of different opinions out there like RSSI doesn't matter as a real-time performance result and you should just count on noise level. Of course on conventional objects error rate is not involved.

Unconventional items you can always apply function seven to see if IFX helps, if it doesn't, toggle It Off.
 
Last edited:

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
6,168
Location
Chicago , IL
We've had numerous posts on here since they were introduced. Listen for a while, see how it sounds. If you think it could be better, try the filters. If you're ok with it, leave it alone. No reason to analyze, then re-analyze then use charts and graphs on the scanner. It's your ears that know if it's good or not. No "art", just listen.
 

trentbob

W3BUX- Bucks County, PA
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
6,248
We've had numerous posts on here since they were introduced. Listen for a while, see how it sounds. If you think it could be better, try the filters. If you're ok with it, leave it alone. No reason to analyze, then re-analyze then use charts and graphs on the scanner. It's your ears that know if it's good or not. No "art", just listen.
I tend to agree with that. I'm not into all the mumbo-jumbo of exactly how they work. We hear complaints about poor performance on VHF and UHF, we also hear reports of clipping and missed transmissions. And those cases can be helped using filters. They should be looked at as troubleshooting tools, not something you need to put on every object, normal usually does fine as a default.

I try to use a system that is uniform and consistent and not so much hit or miss. I also have no difficulty with any VHF or UHF objects and all of my systems within range work as advertised.
 

palmerjrusa

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
1,263
Location
Frederick
I tend to agree with that. I'm not into all the mumbo-jumbo of exactly how they work. We hear complaints about poor performance on VHF and UHF, we also hear reports of clipping and missed transmissions. And those cases can be helped using filters. They should be looked at as troubleshooting tools, not something you need to put on every object, normal usually does fine as a default.

I try to use a system that is uniform and consistent and not so much hit or miss. I also have no difficulty with any VHF or UHF objects and all of my systems within range work as advertised.

All I can say is the filters made a big difference to reception for weaker signals on my SDS100, choosing wide invert = reception of signals vs. no reception with the setting on normal.
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
6,168
Location
Chicago , IL
We've had numerous posts on here since they were introduced. Listen for a while, see how it sounds. If you think it could be better, try the filters. If you're ok with it, leave it alone. No reason to analyze, then re-analyze then use charts and graphs on the scanner. It's your ears that know if it's good or not. No "art", just listen.
I tend to agree with that. I'm not into all the mumbo-jumbo of exactly how they work. We hear complaints about poor performance on VHF and UHF, we also hear reports of clipping and missed transmissions. And those cases can be helped using filters. They should be looked at as troubleshooting tools, not something you need to put on every object, normal usually does fine as a default.

I try to use a system that is uniform and consistent and not so much hit or miss. I also have no difficulty with any VHF or UHF objects and all of my systems within range work as advertised.
All I can say is the filters made a big difference to reception for weaker signals on my SDS100, choosing wide invert = reception of signals vs. no reception with the setting on normal.

Pretty much what we mean. Let it ride, sit back, listen. Don't worry if the RSSI level isn't what one user said is "optimum". Having the tools to improve is what the filters are.
 

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
4,512
Location
Waco, Texas
Ok, there is a treasure trove of great information here. I am going to sift through these great responses to "attempt" to understand. It took over 10 years to understand my 436HP, but I persevered and made it work for me.

Back in the day, I used to double the IF and add it to a frequency to hear DEA in Houston in the late 80s. I believe this was related to harmonics. If I am not mistaken, the 406 to 420 MHz was out of reach. I don't know if my scanner was limited. I believe I used this on my Bearcat 100. I believe this UHF band started at 420 back in the day.
 

werinshades

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
6,168
Location
Chicago , IL
Ok, there is a treasure trove of great information here. I am going to sift through these great responses to "attempt" to understand. It took over 10 years to understand my 436HP, but I persevered and made it work for me.

Back in the day, I used to double the IF and add it to a frequency to hear DEA in Houston in the late 80s. I believe this was related to harmonics. If I am not mistaken, the 406 to 420 MHz was out of reach. I don't know if my scanner was limited. I believe I used this on my Bearcat 100. I believe this UHF band started at 420 back in the day.

Try not to over think the scanner. Program it, listen and if you feel something needs to improve, the scanner has the the tools to resolve most issues. You're looking into and understanding filters which is a good thing, but if everything sounds good, leave well enough alone.
 

gary123

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2002
Messages
2,503
For a non technical explanation think of the filters as if your looking out a window. Under normal conditions everything is fine and you have a grate view. Other times the sun is shining into your eyes. So what you do is stand to one side of the window or the other so the sun is blocked by the wall and no longer is directly in your eyes. This is basically what your doing when adjusting the filters. You are kind of blocking out a stronger adjacent signal.

Remember this is a generality. If you need to block out a specific frequency there are other more effective methods.
 

bob550

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
2,075
Location
Albany County, NY
That's correct
So then the assumption is that there would be activity on a frequency close enough to cause interference. That should be verifiable by searching the RR Database, FCC Database, or through the use of an SDR tuned to the frequency being interfered with.
 

sonm10

Central MN Monitor
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Messages
1,046
Location
Sauk Centre, Minnesota
So then the assumption is that there would be activity on a frequency close enough to cause interference. That should be verifiable by searching the RR Database, FCC Database, or through the use of an SDR tuned to the frequency being interfered with.
Well, there is a lot that could cause interference, especially in the 700/800 band. That could include lmr, cellular, data, etc. Anything in that 10 Mhz window that could desensitize your frequencies.
 

bob550

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
2,075
Location
Albany County, NY
Well, there is a lot that could cause interference, especially in the 700/800 band. That could include lmr, cellular, data, etc. Anything in that 10 Mhz window that could desensitize your frequencies.

True. But if there are no frequencies licensed for use in the geographical region +- 10 MHz from the monitored frequency, then there has to be another cause for the signal degradation. The point being is that if detective work comes up empty handed, shifting the IF won't help.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top