TX PL Tones for Simplex Operation

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Rlahey

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Okay, I need someone to explain this topic to me like I'm 5. In a simplex operation, what does to TX PL do? Obviously simplex is direct, radio to radio... on the receiving radio I understand why there is an RX PL, but why does the transmitting radio need different PL tones for simplex only operation?
 

vagrant

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If you and I enjoy talking using simplex, but Billy always butts in, you and I could use the same PL tone on transmit and receive and never hear Billy, unless he figures out the PL tone and uses it when transmitting. If he does, we let the air out of his bicycle tires.

Reading your post again, well…we could use a different PL when transmitting. You could use PL 67 when transmitting and I would use PL 67 on receive. I could use 141.3 on TX and you would use 141.3 on RX. That may perplex Billy.
 
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a417

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You understood the assignment. I get somewhat get it now, but what if you only use the same PL tone on TX, and non on RX. What function does that serve?
that allows a repeater/reciever to discriminate what it wants to repeat, and allows anyone with any reciever, that can recieve the frequency, to listen to it. Used to be used frequently in the public saftey market to allow people to switch to a local 'scene' channel that everyone could still here, but would'nt tie up a repeater.

J-Roc steals two of your radios. He turns off the PL on TX of the radios he's using. It now won't go thru your repeater (which is set up to require a PL on TX), but your radios will hear it if they are in the immediate vicinity. Julian sneaks around right near you and talks on the radio which is now only talking to you, but you think it's going thru the repeater and that everyone can hear it...and he sends you, and only you on a wild goose chase. Randy, who is much farther away, hears nothing as it didn't go thru the repeater.

The repeater was listening for PL on TX, didn't hear it...didn't send it. Radios were in what's called carrier-squelch (CSQ) mode (RX no PL) will listen to anything on that chanel w/o discrimination.
 
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jaspence

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Remember that if monitoring stations are not using PL, they can hear all transmissions regardless of PL or digital tones.
 

KK6ZTE

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Okay, I need someone to explain this topic to me like I'm 5. In a simplex operation, what does to TX PL do? Obviously simplex is direct, radio to radio... on the receiving radio I understand why there is an RX PL, but why does the transmitting radio need different PL tones for simplex only operation?
I'll give this a shot.

When you're going through a repeater, the TX tone sent by your radio indicates to the repeater's receiver that this is a valid transmission. It would then repeat that transmission. If your handheld has a RX tone set, then the repeater is transmitting a PL tone to open your radio's receiver.

In simplex, the same functionality exists. You're just removing the repeater. If you have an RX tone set, any radios you want to communicate with will need to send a TX tone. In a repeater setting, you're using the TX tone to tell the repeater to "open up". In simplex, you're doing the same thing. The only difference is that you're using it to "open up" your radio's receiver, not the repeater's receiver.

If you don't have an RX tone set, there's no need for a TX tone. Having a TX tone with no RX on simplex is fine, but having an RX tone with no TX will result in no communications, since your radio never knows what's intended for it vs anyone else.
 

Rlahey

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That makes perfect sense, putting simplex in the same way a repeater would function regarding TX and RX tones. Makes complete sense why there are so many TX PL tones, and not very many RX tones as there are going to be user specific
 

Rlahey

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Wait... What? Any valid PL tone frequency can be used as a TX tone and/or an RX tone. What am I missing here? How are there fewer RX tones than TX tones?
You are correct, mainly I was trying to figure out why most of the mutual aid nation wide channels use a TX PL but not a RX PL for simplex operation. They all mainly use 156.7 TX PL, with no RX PL. I.E. user specific.
 

Rlahey

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that allows a repeater/reciever to discriminate what it wants to repeat, and allows anyone with any reciever, that can recieve the frequency, to listen to it. Used to be used frequently in the public saftey market to allow people to switch to a local 'scene' channel that everyone could still here, but would'nt tie up a repeater.

J-Roc steals two of your radios. He turns off the PL on TX of the radios he's using. It now won't go thru your repeater (which is set up to require a PL on TX), but your radios will hear it if they are in the immediate vicinity. Julian sneaks around right near you and talks on the radio which is now only talking to you, but you think it's going thru the repeater and that everyone can hear it...and he sends you, and only you on a wild goose chase. Randy, who is much farther away, hears nothing as it didn't go thru the repeater.

The repeater was listening for PL on TX, didn't hear it...didn't send it. Radios were in what's called carrier-squelch (CSQ) mode (RX no PL) will listen to anything on that chanel w/o discrimination.
Thank you. Barb has been on me to get this new radio system off the ground. Ricky, Julian and Bubbles cracked my PL tones and have been hearing all of my and Rand's traffic.
 
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If you and I enjoy talking using simplex, but Billy always butts in, you and I could use the same PL tone on transmit and receive and never hear Billy, unless he figures out the PL tone and uses it when transmitting. If he does, we let the air out of his bicycle tires.

Reading your post again, well…we could use a different PL when transmitting. You could use PL 67 when transmitting and I would use PL 67 on receive. I could use 141.3 on TX and you would use 141.3 on RX. That may perplex Billy.
Well, that may come close to being true, but if he's using no PL or a different PL, Billy's transmission could still interfere with, if not block your transmissions to each other. If 2 fm signals are of a close signal strength, there isn't a pronounced capture effect and you get a buzzing bees like interference and if Billy's signal were strong enough, it would be captured and you wouldn't hear a transmission from your friend occurring at the same time. I used to deal with a community repeater that had multiple PLs. The mobiles were generally configured to disable Rx PL when the mic was off hook, as you were supposed to monitor to make sure there wasn't any activity on the channel before transmitting. Handhelds had no such automatic PL disable(usually they had a button to push to go into monitor or carrier squelch, which usually wasn't done.), so handheld users often interfered with other users.
What PL does do fairly well is allow multiple users on a single frequency to not "have" to hear everyone else on the channel as long as you use both TX & Rx PL and to reduce the annoyance caused by various types of interference that would break squelch and be heard with a radio with normally adjusted carrier squelch. Of course in a repeater system, PL can be used as an access control device and can also reduce or eliminate having the repeater keying up for interference or a high rf noise level, but PL(subaudible tones, outside the receiver audio passband) is, despite its trademarked name(Private Line), not at all any type of privacy device, but a listeners' comfort / filter system.

that allows a repeater/reciever to discriminate what it wants to repeat, and allows anyone with any reciever, that can recieve the frequency, to listen to it. Used to be used frequently in the public saftey market to allow people to switch to a local 'scene' channel that everyone could still here, but would'nt tie up a repeater.

J-Roc steals two of your radios. He turns off the PL on TX of the radios he's using. It now won't go thru your repeater (which is set up to require a PL on TX), but your radios will hear it if they are in the immediate vicinity. Julian sneaks around right near you and talks on the radio which is now only talking to you, but you think it's going thru the repeater and that everyone can hear it...and he sends you, and only you on a wild goose chase. Randy, who is much farther away, hears nothing as it didn't go thru the repeater.

The repeater was listening for PL on TX, didn't hear it...didn't send it. Radios were in what's called carrier-squelch (CSQ) mode (RX no PL) will listen to anything on that chanel w/o discrimination.
That's not quite right, if Tx PL were disabled on a channel configured for a repeater, you'd be transmitting on the repeater input and listening on the repeater output. You could interfere with the repeater under some circumstances, but no one would hear you other than the interference because you aren't keying up the repeater and other users aren't listening on that frequency, they're listening on the repeater output, no matter whether they're progrogrammed for PL or carrier squelch(CSQ). The "scene" channel, if not a separate frequency, would generally be simplex on the repeater output frequency, which is known as "talk around" and is especially useful if you're using a handheld or are out of range of the repeater system or in a dead spot. If the stolen radio were programmed or reprogrammed with talk around, then what you described could happen, but others would hear what if anything was said by the person being sent on the wild goose chase because it would still be going out over the repeater and would likely, especially in public safety, be questioned as to who he was talking to or what was going on. The person being sent on the wild goose chase might also notice, because most repeaters have at least a short hang time to facilitate communications, and it's absence is noticeable.
 

ecps92

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Because for Interop purposes it is simpler to put TX with the PL and RX CSQ or for P25 they use $7FE which is CSQ but P25
this allows for them to hear anyone who may have been programmed wrong, used the wrong OST or they [like NH] have used 136.5 on that same channel since PL's came out and call is Fireground vs Fire86

For Hobby perspective [Scanner] program in the PL that way you know you are listening to xyz Interop vs Local user

You are correct, mainly I was trying to figure out why most of the mutual aid nation wide channels use a TX PL but not a RX PL for simplex operation. They all mainly use 156.7 TX PL, with no RX PL. I.E. user specific.
 

chief21

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I was trying to figure out why most of the mutual aid nation wide channels use a TX PL but not a RX PL for simplex operation. They all mainly use 156.7 TX PL, with no RX PL. I.E. user specific.
What ecps92 said, above. (y)
The primary purpose of any mutual aid channel is to provide a common channel potentially accessible to ALL participants. This usually means a simplex channel (or perhaps a basic repeater channel) that represents a "lowest common denominator" configuration.
You might also remember that "back in the day", many radio models offered PL as an extra-cost option and many smaller agencies did not necessarily have PL decode or PL capability at all.
 
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