Type 2

[Muxlow]

Hey
I was trying to monitor a type 2 system today and i had unitrunker and trunker both running and i had everythign programmed into my scanner and it wouldnt track the sysetm.
It was for Terra in lambton county. I have the control chann and the other 3 channels programmed in, and found 3 talk groups 2 witch had lots of chatter but i couldnt hear anything on the radio. Iv got a 396t. So i tried to program it by hand and still got nothing. Tried it in search mode and in just scan, with and without any talk groups.

Any ideas of why that was? Had the system key and group key both on for that system and group but yet nothing. And to add to it all i was 2 streets over from the place and didnt even have to have a antenna on my data radio for trunker/unitrunker to work.

Had that with Consumer energy system too. Could see it all on the laptop but couldnt hear anything

 

[Forts]

Well, the first thing I notice is that Consumers Engery is an EDACS system. Did you have it programmed as such in your 396? LCN's in the proper order etc etc.... As for the Terra system, I don't know which one you are talking about. Have any more details?

*edit* I found the Terra system you were referring to in the database. Seeing as it's a UHF system, you will need to know the bandplan so you can enter that info into your scanner. Unitrunker/Trunker will show all the activity on the system but not likely proper frequencies (may just be hex channel numbers). If you look in the Wiki under Motorola Trunking, there used to be a link to a document that would explain how to determine the proper bandplan for systems like this. Also, depending on the age of the system it may be a Type I setup. I find most of these factories are using older radios these days, and they are usually Type I or sometimes Type IIi hybrid systems.

*edit #2* I'll save you a step... http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Determining_Base/Step/Offset_for_VHF/UHF_Motorola_Systems

 

[Muxlow]

Also in trunker and unitrunker iv got something odd
Unitrunker shows the 3 channels and their numbers and i entered the UHF freq ino each channel that goes with that channel number. But over in trunker it shows the same channels in hex and in the 800mhz range.. whys that? Does that on a few other systems too. UHF on unitrunker and 800 on trunker
I made a new system with the 800mhz freqs and still got nothign also

I really hate math and suck at it lol
So maybe someone could do the math for me and show how you did it al. That link just made my mind a brick right now and yeah... HA

Here are the 3 channels and freq's for the system
664-453.3125 Control
576-454.4975
570-459.48750

 

[SCPD]

But over in trunker it shows the same channels in hex and in the 800mhz range.. whys that?

The first Motorola systems were 800 mhz only. 900 and VHF/UHF systems appeared later. Trunker assumes 800 mhz unless told otherwise.

For discovering new bandplans some relief is on the way in the form of some new code. Given two correct frequencies - you can extrapolate - but it would be up to the user to verify the other channels that were filled in by the program.

 

[Muxlow]

ooo whens that comming?

 

[Forts]

Yep as Rick mentioned above, Trunker always assumes you are monitoring an 800mhz system. If the system you are watching had a system ID of 1234, open the 1234sys.txt file and look for the PLAN= line. That's where you can change it from 800mhz to 900/UHF/VHF etc. Also take a look and see if you have the Trunker.htm help file... it may or may not have come in the Trunker package you originally downloaded. It briefly explains some of this stuff, but not in great detail. Sounds like good things are coming from Unitrunker soon though!!!

 

[Forts]

Here are the 3 channels and freq's for the system
664-453.3125 Control
576-454.4975
570-459.48750

If you get a second, double check those numbers... usually the channel number increases with the frequency... so 454.4975 should have a higher number than 453.3125. Perhaps this system is just different from the rest I've come across....

 

[Muxlow]

Here is what i got from the unitrunker file that auto saves
*Site, LCN, Control, Listen, Lockout, Frequency, CTCSS, DCS, "Label", First, Last, Confirmed, Hits, "Notes"
0,570,0,1,0,459487500,0.0,0,"",20071113191955,20071116204008,1,32,""
0,574,1,1,0,454487500,0.0,0,"",20071020040547,20071116204016,1,29,""
0,664,1,1,0,463312500,0.0,0,"",20071001223704,20071116204726,1,7,""

 

[SCPD]

None of the frequencies line up to fit a plan. Either one of the frequencies is off or it's band plan has three table entries (at least).

 

[Muxlow]

Soo what does that mean i have to dooo?
Try and scan to find the rite other 2 frequencies used for voice?

 

[SCPD]

If the info in the DB isn't right (or it isn't listed), then yeah, you'll want to start from scratch.

The easy channel is the control channel. You've already nailed that one down. Do you have a second radio that can scan UHF as conventional channels? If you know some of the frequencies - program those into a empty bank (omit the control channel) and set it to scan. Each time a new call appears on Unitrunker, watch the display on the second radio. If there is only one call active - you've likely found the right frequency (you might be hitting a repeater input).

If none of the frequencies are known and both the RR DB and FCC DB are no help; do a limit search in the area of the band where you expect this system to have voice channels. This is much slower. The general idea is you want to correlate call activity on the Unitrunker display with "hits" on the scanner.

Hardcore folks will run a spectrum sweep of that portion of the band. This will speed up finding the frequencies but you'll still have to confirm each frequency / LCN pair using something like the steps above.

 

[Muxlow]

Thats how i found 2 of the listed channels. Only 3 are listed on unitrunker 1 was control so had to find the other 2.
On my 396T i was doing a limit search between 440-470 and saw when someone was tlaking on a talk group i could hear it on the 396 when it held at a freq.
Then when the voice stoped it went away on unitrunker.
Maybe since i was so close it was picking up the wrong freq but so close maybe a few off?

 

[Muxlow]

Could someone help me out on getting the base,offset and spacing?
The link just makes my head hurt.
I don't understand what its all tell me to do...

These are cha channel numbers iv got and the control is 100% rite
The other 2 may not be.
If someone could post an easy way to figure it all out that would help alot

664-453.3125 Control
576-454.4975
570-459.48750

 

[SCPD]

If someone could post an easy way to figure it all out that would help alot

I'm seeing conflicting numbers. The formulas are no good without correct numbers. You've posted ...

664-453.3125 Control
576-454.4975
570-459.48750

... and also ...

0,570,0,1,0,459487500,0.0,0,"",20071113191955,2007 1116204008,1,32,""
0,574,1,1,0,454487500,0.0,0,"",20071020040547,2007 1116204016,1,29,""
0,664,1,1,0,463312500,0.0,0,"",20071001223704,2007 1116204726,1,7,""

Channel # 664 has two conflicting frequencies listed. Please confirm which is correct. Channels #574 and #576 - do both of these exist or is one a typo? Also - please double-check channel #570 just to be sure.

Yeah, the range scan might stop earlier but should land with 5 to 10 khz of the real frequency. Since these aren't in the federal band - you should be able to find FCC licenses to confirm specific frequencies.

There's a small chance you've found the repeater input instead of the repeater output. We want the output freqs.

 

[SkipSanders]

The RR database shows three control channels for the system, but unless Canada isn't using the 5 MHz split input output design used in the US for the 450 band, it's got an error.

The database says the control channels are:

454.4875
459.4875 (possibly in error)
463.3125

If Canada is using the same splits as the US, that second channel is the input for the first.

I suppose if it's NEVER used as a voice channel on the system, they could split a repeater pair into two control channels.

Interestingly enough, none of these show up on the Industry Canada list of authorised frequencies for Terra International:

Tx Freq Rx Freq Station Location Licensee Name
159.120000 159.120000 CVECO TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
453.562500 453.562500 ON SITE, ST. CLAIR TWP., SW ONT. TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
454.512500 459.512500 AMST BS-1 TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
456.662500 SARNIA (PAGING) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
458.937500 458.937500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
459.512500 454.512500 AMST 3 TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
459.512500 454.512500 AMST 4 TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
459.512500 454.512500 AMST-1 TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
459.512500 454.512500 AMST-2 TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
459.512500 454.512500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
460.287500 465.287500 COURTRIGHT (SEC REPEATER) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
460.612500 465.612500 COURTRIGHT (SEC REPEATER) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
460.837500 465.837500 COURTRIGHT (SEC REPEATER) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
461.862500 461.862500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
461.862500 466.862500 COURTRIGHT (SEC REPEATER) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
465.287500 460.287500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
465.612500 460.612500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
465.837500 460.837500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
466.862500 461.862500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
469.212500 469.212500 COURTRIGHT (NIT-B-S-1) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
469.212500 469.212500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
469.637500 469.637500 COURTRIGHT (UREA BS) TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS
469.637500 469.637500 COURTRIGHT TERRA INTERNATIONAL (CANADA) INC ATTENTION: BILL DESCHAMPS

That indicates Terra repeaters/channels on:

454.5125 (probably seperate from the rest)
456.6625 (Paging)
458.9375 (simplex only)
460.2875 Repeater
460.6125 Repeater
460.8375 Repeater
461.8625 Repeater (also used simplex)
469.2125 (simplex only)
469.6375 (simplex only)


However, I find these listings showing in Lambton, which may be the actual user of the trunk system involved (or the owner, while selling use to Terra)

459.437500 454.437500 LAMBTON COUNTY Spectrum Communications International Inc
459.487500 454.487500 LAMBTON COUNTY Spectrum Communications International Inc
460.537500 465.537500 LAMBTON COUNTY Spectrum Communications International Inc CIU442
465.537500 460.537500 LAMBTON COUNTY Spectrum Communications International Inc

This indicates the repeater outputs would be:

454.4375
454.4875
460.5375

 

[Muxlow]

Maybe i should pop them in my radio and see if i get any voice on any
And have unitrunker up also

 

[SCPD]

I suppose if it's NEVER used as a voice channel on the system, they could split a repeater pair into two control channels.

The mobiles TX on the control channel input to affiliate, request a channel grant, and so on.