Uni Trunker - System Patches

[bneilson]

UniTrunker - System Patches

Hey guys,

I was just curious if anybody knew what is being some when a system patch is done with the same TG? So I understanding patching TG 1 to TG 2 but as you can see in the screen shot attached, I am frequently seeing patches to the same talkgroup (TG1 to TG1).

Any thoughts?

Trunker guys, are you also seeing this? Not sure if Trunker shows system patches or not...

 

[Rolfman]

I see it all the time too. No idea.

 

[gldavis]

I've seen teh same thing. No idea. I am still trying to figure out a lot of things with this program. I really wish it came with an instruction manual.
Gary

 

[Rolfman]

Instructions would be nice.

One thought:
It was mentioned in a post by bneilson about a user who was "roaming out of area". Could that patch from the same TG's be the patch from say Weber County Site-01 to Utah County Site-04?

 

[bneilson]

a user who was "roaming out of area".

Good thought... but as I understand it that is taken care of by the zone controller on the back end. It might still show us as a patch though.

While looking around a bit I did find the attached document that is kind of interesting about some of the UCAN plans...

 

[qlajlu]

I am still trying to figure out a lot of things with this program. I really wish it came with an instruction manual.

Instructions would be nice.

Why don't you guys ask the man who wrote the program? His user name is UniTrunker (fancy that) and he is a Database Admin. here on RR.com. Remember when Audiodave1 visited us the first part of last month (and set off this firestorm we are now in)? Dave had made a post showing us all how to download .csv formatted info captured by the UniTrunker program and the following post was by UniTrunker telling Dave how it was intended to be done. I asked Dave about that and he was the one who told me that UniTrunker wrote the program.

One or all of you should send him a PM and ask those questions that are perplexing you.

 

[Rolfman]

Well I put a post up there on the Trunker Fourm and linked our conversation here. Guess we shall see if they can clear up these questions.

Added 1316hrs:
I did find this thread on Motorola Systems which has a nice description on status bits and other nice info.

Added 1531hrs:
Based off this Multi-Select - multiple repeaters are participating in the call, one for each associated talkgroup. guessing this would be the user "roaming out of area"?

XP is Cross Patch, guessing 2 TG's linked.

I guess the problem I am having is if they put a column in the program to "show" the Call Type, which happens to equate to the Status Bit, I just don't see why it would then log a new TG as well. Additionally I have noticed Payson PD (TG: 42848) Cross Patched to Utah County Service (TG: 46592) a lot. If that were they case I should have a high hit count on TG:42851, ID+3 Status Bit. But I show no such TG.

 

[Utah_Viper]

From the previous link: http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1

I read this:

A lot of Fire and EMS departments dispatch tone-outs and alarms as Multi-select communications (ID+7). Therefore, if your fire department dispatch talkgroup is 1616, and they do dispatch tone-outs and alarms as Multi-selects, then those communications will be on talkgroup 1623.

So my question is.... How does VECC dispatch the UFA, and others now? is it with the status bit? if so what is the actual tone-out TG?

 

[SCPD]

Howdy folks;

Here's my understanding of group call vs. multi-select vs. cross-patch.

Consider three talkgroups A, B and C. Each group has a dozen or so active users.

The dispatcher initiates a group call to group A. All radios affiliated to group A hear the call. Radios affiliated to group B and C don't.

Now imagine the dispatcher initiates a patch between groups A and B. This happens in the background over the control channel so the radios become silently aware of this new patched group relationship.

The dispatcher initiates a cross patched call. All radios affiliated to groups A and B will hear the call. Group C users hear nothing. It uses only one voice channel. The call may span multiple sites on a networked system but that's really the same as a plain group call across multiple sites. Any radio that replies will reply as a cross-patch call so everyone in groups A and B can hear the mobile unit answer.

Now the dispatcher initiates a multi-select call. As before, all radios affiliated to talkgroups A or B will hear the call. As before, it uses only one voice channel. Here's the difference - the mobile units reply on their own individual talkgroups. Members of group A can reply to each other and the dispatcher but they can't hear replies from group B or C.

The choice as to which type of patched call is at the dispatcher's discretion.

 

[bneilson]

How does VECC dispatch the UFA, and others now? is it with the status bit? if so what is the actual tone-out TG?

I had started this question in a PREVIOUS thread.

While I think the station alerting is on the VHF frequencies as outlined in the previous thread, the handhelds do alert as well. I was at the store the other day and one of the crews came in and one of their radios started beeping. They then turned and went out as the dispatcher was calling out the call information.

The Uniden BR330T will decode 2-Tone pageouts but only on a conventional frequency. This would be really neat, but I don't think we are using 2-Tone in the Salt Lake County area. I would love to know more if others have some details...

 

[Rolfman]

I know some Motorola radios can support both the trunked system and VHF just like the scanners. I would suspect EF Johnson has similar products.

Added: 1115hrs
After thinking about this whole patch thing it is becoming a little clearer after looking at Motorola's website and reading some of the product specs. One of those shows a screenshot of the "dispatch console" which is really nothing more than a PC workstation with a mic tied to a bunch of radio transmitters. Now if I were just in the 5th grade again I could take a field trip to a dispatch and see the whole thing in action.

 

[qlajlu]

Now if I were just in the 5th grade again I could take a field trip to a dispatch and see the whole thing in action.

It is interesting that you would say that. I have thought several times over the past months about trying to make an appointment with VECC for a tour. I don't know if they do that any more since 9/11 but it would be interesting...at least to me. I want to look at the display screens they use on their CAD. I would especially be interested in looking at the way the patrol cars are set up these days. All the guys I used to work with are retired now...or dead or I would ask one of them for a look-see.

Oh, oh, do ya think we could get a group rate on a tour...do ya, do ya? We could use our group meeting for a tour of VECC. Do ya, do ya? Nah...probably not.

Opps. Sorry, a little off topic for this thread. I'll mind my manners.

 

[slicerwizard]

I was just curious if anybody knew what is being some when a system patch is done with the same TG? So I understanding patching TG 1 to TG 2 but as you can see in the screen shot attached, I am frequently seeing patches to the same talkgroup (TG1 to TG1). Any thoughts?

It doesn't look like anyone has answered your question yet, so I'll take a stab at it.

Patches always involve two or more talkgroups; the first one selected by a console operator becomes the supergroup, with all others being subordinate. Background messages are sent continuously on control channels to announce active patches.

For example, if talkgroups B and C are patched to talkgroup A, the system broadcasts these messages:

"Talkgroup A is patched to supergroup A"
"Talkgroup B is patched to supergroup A"
"Talkgroup C is patched to supergroup A"

Note how the first message is redundant ("talkgroup A is part of talkgroup A's patch" - well duh...)

These patch annoucements tell subscriber units that while they can transmit inbound audio on talkgroups A, B or C, the system will be marking their outbound audio as being on talkgroup A only. Hence, real radios (unlike most scanners) that are on talkgroups B or C will track and unmute talkgroup A's audio comms.

Since a large SmartZone system can have dozens of simultaneously active patches, to reduce the amount of data sent over the control channels, announcement messages are only broadcast on zones (sites) where subscriber radios are actually affiliated to patched talkgroups.

This means that if there were no users affiliated to talkgroups A, B or C on the site you're monitoring, none of the above messages would be present on the control channel, even though those patches were in effect.

If there were one or more users affiliated to talkgroup C only, you'd see the third announcement only. The other two announcements wouldn't be sent because there aren't any radios using the site that could benefit from the additional information.

Since you're only seeing the first announcement, you have one or more users on the site who are affiliated to the supergroup (talkgroup A) and none who are affiliated to any of the other talkgroups that are patched to talkgroup A. The only thing a decoder program can tell you is "Well, there's this patch supergroup (Talkgroup A), but I have no clue as to what groups are patched to it. Go figure..."

I hope that explains it for you.