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Using Personal Radio on Municipal System

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brotherbosco

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I'm with a large urban police department, and I'm going to our mobile communications unit tomorrow to find out if I can purchase my own handset. I know enough about the system that I'd have to have them program it for me, but my question is this: Do I have to use the same model of handset that the rest of the department uses? We use Motorola APX6000 handsets, and I was wondering if I could maybe find a better Motorola model (lighter, cheaper, etc) of the same type. Thanks
 

quebecradioguy

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APX6000 is a really good model!

you could have an APX1000, 2000,4000,6000,7000,8000 all depends on what your dept accept. Also make sure to know if the system is Phase 2 and what band its on.
 

mass-man

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You wont find much lighter!!! Cheaper? As has been written here many times,, you really want your safety, or the safety of fellow officerss to rely on a cheaper radio. The APX6000 is a solid, robust radio for a reason!!!!
 

brotherbosco

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When I say cheaper, I'm not talking about cheaping out completely on some ChiComms piece of garbage. I'm talking about another Motorola model that's a few hundred dollars less or something.
 

mbnv992

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If your department uses the apx6000 stick with the apx6000. Or better yet, ask the Systems Administrator what is recommended, since you said they are going to be the ones programming it for you anyway. Then when you do get a 6000, you have to really pay attention to the flashcode so your systems admin can get it up and running on the system.
 

brotherbosco

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We used to use the XTS radios up until about 7 years ago (I forget which one specifically) I actually really liked that one. Anyone know if that would be compatible? It's a Phase 2 system
 

brotherbosco

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Ok. Guess I'll bite the bullet and drop $2k on the APX6000. If anything happens to this radio, I'm going to lose my mind.
 

mbnv992

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Something else to watch out for - a LOT of these radios being sold have no tags on them. I would highly doubt a systems admin would allow a tag less radio on a system. So - just something else to be aware of.
 

talviar

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Ok. Guess I'll bite the bullet and drop $2k on the APX6000. If anything happens to this radio, I'm going to lose my mind.

Before u spend $2k on an APX, especially if its a used unit,

If the municipal radio system is a trunking radio system (Guessing yes since you mention Phase 2), you need to check to verify the correct options are in the radio. Many radio systems will not permit the radio on if the options in the radio do not meet a minimum spec..

And what the poster above said--- is absolutely correct.... if a radio without tags or "obvious fake tags" shows up on my desk for programming onto the county radio system, it gets handed back with a polite, hope u can get a refund......
 

FFPM571

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First and foremost... Check that even a personal radio is allowed.. Majority of system admins and communtications directors will not allow anything other that issued radios being used. There are liability and legal issues that could arise
 

chrismol1

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First and foremost... Check that even a personal radio is allowed.. Majority of system admins and communtications directors will not allow anything other that issued radios being used. There are liability and legal issues that could arise

This. In my metro area, all the system handbooks specify, personal radios are not allowed, they must be owned by the agencies, and they even too specify, self-modifications are not allowed and anything has to go thru the radio shop/contracts for programming and ultimately approval by the emergency director. They even go on to saying radios programmed for scanning only must also be approved
 

W9WSS

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Don't put your career and hard-earned money on something you may not be able to utilize while on (or off) duty. An agency I know of won't allow their personnel to use their own cellphones on duty. You are issued a cell phone to use by the agency. They allow a "reasonable amount" of personal calls as long as you don't go hog wild totaling hundreds of minutes. Violations of this rule is subject to severe discipline and even charges against agency personnel.
 

mmckenna

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I'm a system admin, and I can tell you there's a lot of issues with this.

First, talk to the system admin for your department before you spend any money on anything. If they agree to let you put a personal radio on their system, get —EVERYTHING— in writing, department letterhead, and signed by someone who has the authority to do so. And do it before you buy anything. Verbal agreements are only as valuable as the paper they are written on….

FCC Part 90 rules are exceedingly clear on this. You, as a member of the agency, do not have the authority to simply add a radio to their system. The FCC rules state that the licensee is fully responsible for every. single. radio. on that system. That means that even though you want to pay for the radio, they are legally responsible for it. Your privately owned radio now the responsibility of a public agency, usually doesn't fly well with the legal types, but your agency may be different.

If your agency uses encryption, this is a whole different ball of wax. Putting encryption keys in a radio that the agency doesn't own should not sit well with the people in charge. It would technically be a violation of the FBI requirements that any devices used to handle CJI be under control of the agency.

Used radios are another red flag. The statements above about e-bay specials with no tags should raise some eyebrows at the radio shop if you show up with one of those. I've had to deal with this stuff before, and I will not program radios that show up like that. Doesn't matter what approval they have, it can be an FCC type certification issue.

The flashcode thing comes into play also. The radio needs to be configured to not only work on the same bands, but support the trunking system, etc. If you buy a radio that doesn't have the right flashcode, it won't be programmable on that system. It can be upgraded, but someone will have to pay for that upgrade.

Programming can also be a challenge. Usually the radio shop will have precanned files that they dump into new radios. Motorola software will usually look at the radio model and flashcode, and if it does not match what the file is written for, it will not program. If the entire programming file needs to be rejiggered for just your radio, that's some labor that someone has to pay for. Depending on the amount of changes, that can be easy or hard. Again, this was something that happened to me at work, and I finally had to put my foot down. Random flash code radios showing up and all needing a file specific for that radio. Just got to be too much labor to save someone else buying the correct radio.

I have no idea if your agency will allow this or not. That's for you and them to work out. But looking at this from a system admin point of view, I don't allow it to happen on our system. Hopefully your agency will approach this in a way that is more favorable to you.

Used radios utilized in public safety application that have been purchased from an unknown source need to have their alignment checked. Goes back to the FCC Licensee being responsible for all radios in use under the license, even one you purchase yourself. If it's a hacked together e-bay special, that goes ten fold. The agency should make sure alignment is done to make sure the radio is working correctly before putting it on the system. If they are a true radio shop, they'll have a service monitor that can do that easily. But it's agency labor spent on a personal radio, and that can be a conflict in some legal sense.

Let us know how it goes.
 

jruta

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I have to ask, if the 6k is what your dept. is carrying but you want something lighter (?) and there doesn’t seem to be a feasible alternative, I’m wondering why is it that you’ll “just deal with it” and drop 2k on the same radio they’re issuing?

Lol. Obviously it’s not my business to tell anyone what to do, or not to do with their money (I too am a radio enthusiast) i just had to ask.
 

ElroyJetson

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Mmckenna absolutely crushed it. He covered every salient point with clarity and accuracy.

Almost every department will have an "If you need a radio, we'll issue you a radio" policy and it's there for good reason.

The county ARES group (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) even has a radio installed in their MCC (Mobile Command Center) on the county system, and that radio is issued by the county to the group and all service issues relating to it are handled via the county's contracted radio shop, as per the directions of the county's communications management office. This is apparently a more or less standard arrangement anywhere you go.

Let the county spend the money for the radio you use. Let them pay for the maintenance and upkeep on it. Let them ensure that you get the right radio for the job, with the right features to work perfectly in your system.

If you have a specific reason for why you want your own radio, please articulate it. Perhaps, being as you have specified VHF, you are an amateur radio operator and want the radio to do double duty for you and use it on 2 meters when you're off duty. (Or even when on. That's not for me to be concerned about.) If this is the case, you may argue that there is a legitimate connection between amateur radio services and the interests of public safety, and perhaps you can get permission to have the amateur channels you specify added to the radio in their own zone.

Or maybe you're a boating enthusiast. Maybe you want the VHF marine channels in your radio when you're out on the water in Floaty McBoaty.

Radios that are authorized for usage on the VHF maritime channels need to be FCC type accepted under 47 CFR Part 80.

That's an interesting scenario right there, because the APX radios are type accepted under Part 15 Subpart B, as they are defined as digital devices. Thus, technically they're not formally approved (at least not by name) for usage under Part 80.

Yet, based on past experience, even federal agencies such as the Coast Guard have routinely employed Motorola VHF radios that are type accepted under Part 90 (land mobile communications) and not Part 80, on the VHF marine channels. And possibly that operation was not strictly legal as per the FCC regulations. Because those radios were NOT Part 80 accepted.

Really I don't think an FCC regulator is going to have a problem with a public safety grade, type accepted radio being used on the maritime channels so long as the usage conforms to the rules for maritime channel usage. However by the letter of the law that may not be a legal application.

But I digress...the point here is that you can ask permission to have other channels added to your issued radio for off duty or approved on duty usage. All they can do is either say yes or no.
 

NVAGVUP

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The LINCENSEE is responsible for use under all sign. (This includes mobile/portable use and infrastructure) Per Part 90, use is NOT permitted to TRANSMIT without a license or permission from licensee.

If system is trunked, there is an additional layer of authorization/programming. (System key and radio ID assignment)

As a matter of policy per above (As a system admin) it would not be permitted.
 

wa8pyr

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I'm with a large urban police department, and I'm going to our mobile communications unit tomorrow to find out if I can purchase my own handset. I know enough about the system that I'd have to have them program it for me, but my question is this: Do I have to use the same model of handset that the rest of the department uses? We use Motorola APX6000 handsets, and I was wondering if I could maybe find a better Motorola model (lighter, cheaper, etc) of the same type. Thanks

I'm a system admin, and I'll suggest that you check the same things I expect people around here to check on (in this order):
1. Are personally-owned radios even allowed on the system?
2. If allowed, are they permitted for on-duty use? The answer to this may depend on not only the system administrator but also the policies of your own department; a lot of places may allow personally-owned radios for off-duty monitoring but not for on-duty use due to liability concerns.
3. If allowed, what radio models are permitted? Most systems have a defined list of approved radios; if it's not on the list, it won't get on the system.

Aside from the nutshell I just gave, @mmckenna nailed it.

Locally, personally-owned radios (as long as they meet the minimum standards of the system) are permitted for off-duty use and we program them for receive only. Given the high cost for what will be a glorified, feature-limited scanner, I usually tell people to just buy a scanner or a Unication pager.
 
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