Why do you all enjoy using DMR?

[GlobalNorth]

lol ham radio is probably the silliest thing to be an elitist about.

I've been considering this answer all day and I can't refute the logic. I became a ham because I wanted to and an Extra because I enjoyed the challenge. It means nothing to anyone else, but it meant something to me.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

So late to this conversation, but only because I'm one of those "returning from dormancy" licensed ham radio people, and so I needed to spend a little time getting up to speed on digital modes.

So, I see that DMR is a thing...and when I started out, silly me, I thought it was about using digital modes to connect radios, maybe with some more efficiency of frequencies, with additional data capabilities, you know, all that stuff they already have with P25 digital radio systems like we use in emergency services.

So I read up on how DMR works and....from what I learned....it's AOL chat rooms, circa 1995, but using a radio 20 feet from your modem as a microphone/speaker and requiring a license to use the radio and using the internet for 95% of effort of carrying the message from A to B. What? Seriously? Internet chatrooms?

I've always thought that the radio part of Ham Radio was kind of the point of it all.
I figured I must have misunderstood something and that the whole internet chat system was somehow appended to the real RF-connected DMR infrastructure...surely "Brandmeister" wasn't some kind of replacement of what should be a radio-linked network? Was it?

But the more I learned...well, I guess for enough people, they find the whole DMR thing amusing, but I just don't see the point, since talking to strangers on the internet is already possible and vastly simpler than the byzantine approach DMR has taken in the ham "radio" community.

I'm glad I didn't spend too much money on DMR equipment, after a month of goofing around, I gave it away.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

I agree with you 1000%. The system I am on is not connected to Brandmeister, or D-Marc through the internet. The repeater owner owns 7 repeaters in major cities throughout Florida. They are connected to each other through wireless modems, but you must talk into an actual radio that talks through one of the repeaters he owns. Hotspots will not work, & even better, there’s only one TG on each TS. So no busy bonks unless you hear somebody talking. Too many guys getting a woody talking to someone in another country when actually they are talking 3 feet to a hotspot, & the internet does the rest. ZERO accomplishment in that. Might as well pick up a phone, dial 11 random digits, & ask the person who answers where they are. Then start a QSO. And the people who must have a radio that holds every DMR contact on planet earth are too funny. Haven’t updated my Florida only list in 6 years. No need. So I use DMR because that’s where my friends are, & there’s no static. But I also talk on local P25 repeaters. And the abundance of $35 CCR’s hasn’t helped either.

Wow. Are you me?

 

[Daps]

So late to this conversation, but only because I'm one of those "returning from dormancy" licensed ham radio people, and so I needed to spend a little time getting up to speed on digital modes.

So, I see that DMR is a thing...and when I started out, silly me, I thought it was about using digital modes to connect radios, maybe with some more efficiency of frequencies, with additional data capabilities, you know, all that stuff they already have with P25 digital radio systems like we use in emergency services.

So I read up on how DMR works and....from what I learned....it's AOL chat rooms, circa 1995, but using a radio 20 feet from your modem as a microphone/speaker and requiring a license to use the radio and using the internet for 95% of effort of carrying the message from A to B. What? Seriously? Internet chatrooms?

I've always thought that the radio part of Ham Radio was kind of the point of it all.
I figured I must have misunderstood something and that the whole internet chat system was somehow appended to the real RF-connected DMR infrastructure...surely "Brandmeister" wasn't some kind of replacement of what should be a radio-linked network? Was it?

But the more I learned...well, I guess for enough people, they find the whole DMR thing amusing, but I just don't see the point, since talking to strangers on the internet is already possible and vastly simpler than the byzantine approach DMR has taken in the ham "radio" community.

I'm glad I didn't spend too much money on DMR equipment, after a month of goofing around, I gave it away.

Guess you didn't read enough because DMR doesn't require Internet or Brandmeister. You can do the Internet thing and connect to Brandmiester/TGIF talk groups sure, no different than Fusion, DStar or Echolink but DMR in and of itself doesn't require the internet you can talk on a local DMR repeater locally just like a local analog repeater. You can also link DMR repeaters just like you would link two analog repeaters to get more coverage. MTEARS in TN is a bunch of analog linked repeaters that a person on the west side of the state could be talking to someone on the east side during emergencies. They could do the same with DMR repeaters if they chose to but I guess they figured it was more cost efficient to just get a Brandmiester TG# since that infrastructure was already in place, TEMA has a TG as does NWS Memphis.

DMR Simplex radio to radio is a thing also. As for the internet link repeaters. If you're mobile or out and about, you're still doing RF to that repeater.

 

[BucksGuyUSA]

Guess you didn't read enough because DMR doesn't require Internet or Brandmeister. You can do the Internet thing and connect to Brandmiester/TGIF talk groups sure, no different than Fusion, DStar or Echolink but DMR in and of itself doesn't require the internet you can talk on a local DMR repeater locally just like a local analog repeater. You can also link DMR repeaters just like you would link two analog repeaters to get more coverage. MTEARS in TN is a bunch of analog linked repeaters that a person on the west side of the state could be talking to someone on the east side during emergencies. They could do the same with DMR repeaters if they chose to but I guess they figured it was more cost efficient to just get a Brandmiester TG# since that infrastructure was already in place, TEMA has a TG as does NWS Memphis.

DMR Simplex radio to radio is a thing also. As for the internet link repeaters. If you're mobile or out and about, you're still doing RF to that repeater.

Oh, I know it CAN work without the internet, the point is, excepting a few places, the DMR RF networks are simply not set up that way. If you look at the whole DMR universe, it's just overwhelmingly this gigantic internet-based blob of systems with a kind of "fur" of radios covering it.

I'd love to have more "proper" (my perception) and autonomous (not dependent on internet infrastructure) approach to DMR, but I'm obviously not in the majority. Of course, nobody is forcing me to use DMR over the internet at all, and like preferences in food or clothing, my views on DMR are simply a personal choice.

Perhaps it's because I've been using the internet for so long that I don't think of making "contacts" with others via the internet particularly interesting, and why I much prefer the "autonomous" networks of ham radio, with a particular fondness for direct RF links between two end points, or at least standalone RF-based networks.

I guess my point is, to me, DMR has little or no utility value as an emergency communications tool, and that's my own bias in why I get into ham radio in the first place.

 

[alcahuete]

I guess my point is, to me, DMR has little or no utility value as an emergency communications tool...

How so?

 

[AK9R]

How so?

The most vulnerable part of Internet connections is the last mile to a subscriber. If a SHTF scenario happens, the Internet backbone may stay up, but the last mile may be damaged. This happened when the tornadoes hit Henryville, Indiana, ten years ago. The local Indiana Project SAFE-T (statewide trunked system) site continued to operate in site trunking, but had no contact with the outside world because the single-point-of-failure T1 line was severed by the storm damage.

So, assuming a statewide amateur radio emergency communications plan that is based on using DMR to talk to linked repeaters around the state, if the SHTF, some repeater sites may be unconnected from the Internet thus making statewide DMR communications a challenge. Yes, DMR could still be used locally.

 

[belvdr]

the single-point-of-failure T1 line was severed by the storm damage.

Redundant connections tend to go through a central point and are not as resilient as one would like, even when the vendor guarantees it doesn’t. Seen that all over the US with various carriers.

 

[alcahuete]

The most vulnerable part of Internet connections is the last mile to a subscriber. If a SHTF scenario happens, the Internet backbone may stay up, but the last mile may be damaged. This happened when the tornadoes hit Henryville, Indiana, ten years ago. The local Indiana Project SAFE-T (statewide trunked system) site continued to operate in site trunking, but had no contact with the outside world because the single-point-of-failure T1 line was severed by the storm damage.

So, assuming a statewide amateur radio emergency communications plan that is based on using DMR to talk to linked repeaters around the state, if the SHTF, some repeater sites may be unconnected from the Internet thus making statewide DMR communications a challenge. Yes, DMR could still be used locally.

It is no different than any other linked system. If the link is going to go down, it's going to go down. In something like a tornado or hurricane, the internet is probably much more likely to stay up than microwave links. Sure, lines could be cut, etc., but far more likely to lose above ground microwave links than underground cables. It's one of the reasons we stopped using microwave links in my line of work.

Secondly, @BucksGuyUSA only said emergency communications tool, not necessarily some widespread disaster. I posted here a couple times before, but I used the linked DMR network in an actual emergency situation several years ago, when conventional repeaters yielded absolutely no results. That's the amazing thing about the linked networks. Where there might be nobody on a repeater (which is very common these days), there is always someone on the linked network, 24/7.

Thirdly, if you're relying on ham radio (of any kind, but particularly VHF/UHF) for a statewide emergency communications plan, you're living in some alternate universe. Again, hams playing first responder. If the amateur radio system fails, so what? Should never be relied upon for life or death communications in the first place.

 

[mmckenna]

It is no different than any other linked system. If the link is going to go down, it's going to go down. In something like a tornado or hurricane, the internet is probably much more likely to stay up than microwave links. Sure, lines could be cut, etc., but far more likely to lose above ground microwave links than underground cables. It's one of the reasons we stopped using microwave links in my line of work.

There needs to be some careful design involved any time someone is hoping to run any sort of reliable system, and -especially- redundancy. There are only so many carriers, only so many regional/nationwide fiber providers, only so many paths. Very often internet providers are all running down the cable in different strands/buffer tubes, same ducts, same poles. Relying only on IP is a bad idea, unless the design takes into account the actual paths used by the carrier(s). Microwave, fiber, twisted pair, cellular, they all have their place if utilized properly.

But, yeah, hurricane/tornado country and microwave links are a crap shoot. Lots of well documented cases of dish mounts getting twisted in a storm.

That's the amazing thing about the linked networks. Where there might be nobody on a repeater (which is very common these days), there is always someone on the linked network, 24/7.

I've resisted DMR on ham radio for a long time. I've been happy with analog. But that statement makes me want to reconsider. There are some analog linked repeaters around here, but they seem pretty quiet now.

Thirdly, if you're relying on ham radio (of any kind, but particularly VHF/UHF) for a statewide emergency communications plan, you're living in some alternate universe. Again, hams playing first responder. If the amateur radio system fails, so what? Should never be relied upon for life or death communications in the first place.

Spot on.
Ham radio may be a good tool, but it doesn't replace a well designed/built public safety network.
We are in the process of adding statewide HF with ALE for our OES. They already have satellite radio, satellite phones and a few other tools in their tool box. Ham radio, while an option, is WAY down the list.

 

[AK9R]

It is no different than any other linked system.

I agree. Any IP-based linked system has the vulnerability I describe. An RF-based linked system might survive. There are many RF-based linked amateur radio repeater systems around the country and I think they would survive in a SHTF situation...as long as they had power. I'm not aware of any RF-based linked DMR systems in amateur radio. Maybe they exist and I'm not aware of them.

It's one of the reasons we stopped using microwave links in my line of work.

When SAFE-T added simulcast sites in my county, some sites got fiber (buried, I assume) connections, some got microwave connections, and some got both. I understand that the installing contractor drove the decision-making on that point based on cost, time, etc.

Thirdly, if you're relying on ham radio (of any kind, but particularly VHF/UHF) for a statewide emergency communications plan, you're living in some alternate universe.

You will note that I specifically said "assuming a statewide amateur radio emergency communications plan". The state DHS emergency communications plan is outside my knowledge or scope.

 

[AK9R]

Ham radio, while an option, is WAY down the list.

As it should be, in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the "when all else fails" mantra that some folks believe about amateur radio.

I was taught by federal DHS folks that amateur radio has a place in the emergency plan to pass non-critical traffic and to relieve other high-priority communications methods of some low-priority traffic. It's a lesson that took root in my head.

As for DMR, I see too much in-fighting and "you can't do that on my network" attitude by some repeater operators. IMHO, it has driven many average DMR users, and WIRES-X and D-STAR users, to hot spots so they can chose their desired network which diminishes the need for DMR repeaters.

 

[mmckenna]

As it should be, in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the "when all else fails" mantra that some folks believe about amateur radio.

I was taught by federal DHS folks that amateur radio has a place in the emergency plan to pass non-critical traffic and to relieve other high-priority communications methods of some low-priority traffic. It's a lesson that took root in my head.

The days of needing a dedicated person to operate a radio are long gone.

 

[G7RUX]

Digital Voice systems *can* use linking via IP networks but don't have to. Using any of them point-to-point can improve workable range quite nicely in many circumstances. Linking repeaters via IP networks can indeed make for an interesting system but it is still (amateur) radio just like any other system...if you don't want to use it then don't, it's up to you.

 

[G7RUX]

Is that not what a cellphone is for???

One of the nice things about amateur radio is its *unmoderated access* so you are not subject to the whims of an external third party as to whether you can make a contact or not. Clearly, IP/internet linked systems get away from that a little but the same principle still applies.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I rarely use DMR for anything. In my opinion, Tier II is an incomplete protocol which should have taken full advantage of single channel pseudo-trunking. The reason I say that has to do with the issues I've seen with both commercial and amateur DMR systems just having completely overloaded timeslots because person building codeplugs didn't understand the limitation of statically sharing talk paths with multiple groups or is trying to please everyone and give them access to everything.

In terms of RF networks being more reliable than IP networks...simply not true as IP is the transport method not the transport medium. A analog RF link and an IP microwave link both use RF as a transport medium.

 

[alcahuete]

I've resisted DMR on ham radio for a long time. I've been happy with analog. But that statement makes me want to reconsider. There are some analog linked repeaters around here, but they seem pretty quiet now.

I've shared the story here before. I used to do a ton of boating on Lake Mojave. Came across a pretty severe medical emergency in another boat a few years ago. There is no cell phone coverage at all. Marine VHF is usually pretty good with a couple marinas and law enforcement and such, but we couldn't raise anybody at all, probably because we just had a handheld at the time. Long story short, I tried getting on several local repeaters and had no luck at all. Jumped on DMR on either the Socal or California talkgroup....don't remember which, and immediately got a response. Gave him all the info, he called 911, and we had a helicopter there in pretty short order.

Of course, as you have said many, many times on this forum, there has to be someone on the other end, and not only someone on the other end, but somebody who is willing to help. At least with the DMR networks, you potentially have access to a lot of people. I picked the talkgroup I did because I knew there were always at least a couple hundred people monitoring.

Personally, I never rely on amateur radio for anything like that, but I was pretty new to the lake at the time, and made some bad assumptions about cell phone service. Now the satphone is always in the bag when I go out there.

 

[tomhank]

DMR simplifies matters and enables hams to interact with many groups of people while still efficiently communicating. Hams save time and energy by doing this, which also increases the process's economic efficiency.

 

[AK9R]

Please explain how DMR simplifies amateur radio communications.

 

[paulears]

It’s certainly not simple. All my DMR sales to older people, or less educated people are likely to come back. Hams are supposed to understand technical stuff to their licence degree, but DMR expects a very much deeper understanding, and of course programming ability.