Why no ham market options for P25?

[Nap]

Imagine a large corporation let's call Goverment Motors or GM promotes a vehicle wireless system than can be used to monitor owner's vehicles, unlock doors, track the vehicle, etc. They currently use the exisitng nationwide cellular network and have decided they want to buildout their own network and decided their most cost effective network would be the 2 Meter band and they could operate their network with 3.5 Megahertz of bandwidth.

That would be quite a poor idea. I personally wouldn't want to do critical business in a band for which the public at large already has tons of transceivers.

 

[newsphotog]

I have yet to see a serious study showing how these voice modes are dramatic improvements in distance, intelligibility, robustness in high noise conditions, or power requirements over good old analog AM/FM/SSB.

As they're nothing but the equivalent of doing VOIP over a dialup modem over a telephone - instead of talking directly into the phone. The underlying carrying technology - the phone line - has remained the same.

That's malarkey. Have you ever used digital on a regular basis?

 

[Nap]

That's the bare, ruthless truth.

But of course the mp3 generation truly believes that even their headphones are "digital". That's what it writes on the box, right?

 

[W2NJS]

Written a few posts above you will find this statement:

"We have SSB for a long time now, and I have some people in my area experimenting it on VHF/UHF."

I, and I suspect a lot of others on here, can not take the comments seriously from a person who speaks of SSB VHF/UHF "experimentation" when many of us have been using that mode for many years and I believe that it's long past the experimental stage.

 

[mikewazowski]

Nope, we've been using it for years.

Even the commercial industry experimented with it briefly (ACSSB).

I would ask how long Nap has been licenced for if he considers SSB use on V and U as bleeding edge experimentation.

 

[reedeb]

I think IF or when the bands go all digital [DSTAR OR P25] it will be the day I let my license lapse and just use a CB. BUT I don't really think it'll all go digital. It may just be a toy for certain folks [about like the folks on CB who started out with the extra channels, so they could go somewhere the others couldn't go to]

 

[Nap]

Nope, we've been using it for years.

Even the commercial industry experimented with it briefly (ACSSB).

I would ask how long Nap has been licenced for if he considers SSB use on V and U as bleeding edge experimentation.

Mike, I will definitely call you on this one.

1. Where exactly did I say "bleeding edge"?

2. Do you have knowledge of any group(s) using it on a regular basis? (i.e. not in random, infrequent experiments)? Any repeaters maybe?

 

[mikewazowski]

You're correct about number one although your statement about SSB experimentation on v and u made it seem that you consider that bleeding edge.

As far as number two goes, I know of many individuals who use it on a regular basis.

There's calling channels and you can usually find someone for a qso any night.

The closest thing to an amateur repeater would be the satellite transponders.

Of course, just as you claim about p25, the commercial industry has already been there and done that.

Where's the innovation in that?

 

[Nap]

You're correct about number one although your statement about SSB experimentation on v and u made it seem that you consider that bleeding edge.

As far as number two goes, I know of many individuals who use it on a regular basis.

There's calling channels and you can usually find someone for a qso any night.

The closest thing to an amateur repeater would be the satellite transponders.

Of course, just as you claim about p25, the commercial industry has already been there and done that.

Where's the innovation in that?

That was exactly my point. There is no serious innovation. We just use the VOCODER-MODEM-ANALOG CHANNEL model of transmission. Doesn't do anything new except:

1. Allows for implementation of robust encryption algorithms; great for commercial implementations but irrelevant for amateur radio as it would be illegal

2. Allows a large variety of patented VOCODER/MODEM pairs to create nasty incompatibilities between radio brands and models; nice for the commercial applications especially when you are a deep pocketed corporation but not something of high interest to amateurs.

Here a diagram of D-star to see what's inside the box, I stand behind my analogy with using VOIP over dialup modem over landline:

Erik's Image gallery :: Ham Radio Friedrichshafen 2010 :: IMG_5846

 

[W2NJS]

Your remark about SSB repeaters is irrelevant. SSB and CW on VHF and UHF are primarily DX modes, conducted on simplex channels. Any ham with any experience knows this. And I'd be curious to know about your friends who are doing SSB experimentation, although you conveniently ignored the replies you received about this being something that might be written by someone who in reality knows little or nothing about the subject.

 

[Nap]

Your remark about SSB repeaters is irrelevant. SSB and CW on VHF and UHF are primarily DX modes, conducted on simplex channels. Any ham with any experience knows this. And I'd be curious to know about your friends who are doing SSB experimentation, although you conveniently ignored the replies you received about this being something that might be written by someone who in reality knows little or nothing about the subject.

Buddy. Any DX attempt on VHF and UHF is "experimentation". It needs very peculiar conditions in order to succeed. "Any ham with any experience knows this."

Now gimme some slack and let's talk about the topic in the subject line, not about me.

 

[mikewazowski]

Perhaps you'd like to share the contents of your PM to me which detailed your radio background?

So far your posts indicate a general lack of experience in amateur radio.

It's hard to take Anybody considering DX'ing on SSB in the v and u bands as experimentation seriously.

 

[Nap]

OMG, A moderator insisting in personal attacks. Nice place. But let's play the game.

How about we start with the meaning of the word "experiment":

Experiment - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

So far your posts indicate a general lack of comprehension of basic English words.

 

[mikewazowski]

No disrespect intended. I'm merely asking what your amateur radio experience is so myself and others can understand why you are making the statements that you do.

By the Merriam-Webster definition of "experiment", amateurs using P25 are experimenting.

But as you stated before, this topic has drifted off course from the OP's original question.

Let's get back to the original subject.

 

[Nap]

By the Merriam-Webster definition of "experiment", amateurs using P25 are experimenting.

Correct. Innovation implies "coming with something new" while experimenting may be limited to just "replicating an existing, well known something". SSB on VHF is not new, so testing it once in a while will qualify as an "experiment" but not as an "innovation".

Going back to the subject, I would definitely want to see a good use of the digital *data* transfer capabilities for amateur use, be it P25 or D-star (as in "experimenting") or a new technology (as in "innovating").

 

[mancow]

Well, whether you like it or not the various digital modes are here to stay and will only increase in popularity. I like having one more mode to play with on the repeater other than than regular old FM. It has the added benefit of offering me one more chance to eek a signal through in difficult areas as well. Digital doesn't always help in weak areas but there are many times that it does.

 

[Nap]

Well, since we're past the petty fights, here's an interesting mental exercise (regarding the voice aspect of digital):

Imagine that using a vinyl LP as a medium, you decide to engrave it in "digital" instead of analog, using the same needle, groove spacing, play speed and recording/playback equipment.

What bitrate could be reliably achieved? How would an MP3 rendering at this rate sound when compared with a plain analog LP recording? Beyond noise (yes, there will be no hiss and rumble), how would intelligibility / fidelity compare?

P.S. To make it easier, look for the "Shannon limit" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eb/N0

 

[Viking1]

Stemming from a response of mine in another theread, when you consider that we've had a list of P25 repeaters actively going on this forums since 2004, we're on a 2nd generation of scanners for P25 phase one and they still seem to by flying off the shelves, at least well enough that in my town where there is one inactive P25 public safety system, my local radio shack has only stocked P25 capable scanners.

There clearly seems to be enough people interested in using P25 that there ought to be sufficient market for it to be made available to more of us, and a lower cost than the commercial gear with VFO access and easier to program on the fly, opening the radios to an even larger market of Hams, and doing the same for ham targeted repeaters would further increase that market. Not to mention the fact that P25 has the ability to often is operated in mixed mode on the capable repeaters.

It seems to be quite doable for a reasonable price point (in the same ballpark as what people are spending on APRS and DSTAR); and the used P25 commercial gear seems to sell well on fleabay, so why haven't we seen it offered as an off the shelf solution to ham radio operators?

License royalties.

 

[beischel]

Wrong

Icom does not get a royalty if someone else makes a DStar radio. It is an OPEN standard. The extra cost comes from the Codec - which is NOT owned by Icom. At the most, per radio, the Codec adds $20 to the cost of the radio. That is single quantity. I'm sure it is less with large quantities.

There is so much misinformation about this digital stuff and DStar, it is incredible.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

Duffy
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