XTS5000 KFDshield

[saberthree]

For the guys that have experience with the KFD and XTS5000,

I'm playing the waiting game at the moment with the FCC to approve my iterant business frequencies, so I'm getting used to using the KFD to keyfill my radios. While I like the idea of using AES256, I often have subpar results with using the P25 digital mode as far as talk around goes. I would prefer to use analog, but was thinking of using DES-XL. I understand the range can be reduced and the audio quality can suck a little bit from what I've read. However, it seems my KFD wont keyfill my radios with DES-XL. Every time I fill in the data field and request the KFD software to load the DES-XL, it automatically keyfills the radio with DES-OFB. I already checked my UCM, it has both DES-XL and DES-OFB, along with AES256, and I checked the secure type to hardware. I did notice while tinkering with the conventional personality tab, there is a DES-XL TX default check box, but clicking it does nothing. what am I missing? I believe I might have missing something in CPS or the KFD

 

[saberthree]

I think I might have figured it out, had to change the RX options in the personality field to non astro, which allows the secure voice to be switched to securenet in the secure tab of the personality folder

 

[wgbecks]

I think I might have figured it out, had to change the RX options in the personality field to non astro, which allows the secure voice to be switched to securenet in the secure tab of the personality folder

Does KFDShield now allow you to load a DES-XL key or is it still reverting DES-XL keyload attempts to DES-OFB?

 

[saberthree]

Does KFDShield now allow you to load a DES-XL key or is it still reverting DES-XL keyload attempts to DES-OFB?

It loads it as DES-OFB even though I requested XL, it seems that on CPS you can change it to run it as DES-XL since the keys are the same length (im guessing from comparing how they look in KFD). I had to switch the personality to non-astro receive, which makes the secure tab force the astro secure voice to securenet voice. When I read the keys on the radio with the kfd, it still lists the algorithm as OFB. From what I understand, OFB only works in digital mode and XL works in analog wideband mode only, so running the radio on my analog channel and turning on secure mode, it let's me transmit in analog mode. When listening to it on my other radio without the keys (still waiting for the kvl cable for it) it sounds like what DES typically would sound like when listening to it on an analog radio, compared to how OFB and AES sounds like when on digital mode with al the R2D2 beeps

 

[wgbecks]

Your assumptions/conclusions are correct. An informed source told me that its normal for KFDTool/KFDShield to read back DES-OFB
when keyloading DES-XL. I had never used Securenet before and decided to test it out with a couple of portables that already had
DES-OFB keys loaded to see how it worked, but was not impressed with the raspy audio quality!

 

[saberthree]

Your assumptions/conclusions are correct. An informed source told me that its normal for KFDTool/KFDShield to read back DES-O
when keyloading DES-XL. I had never used Securenet before and decided to test it out with a couple of portables that already had
DES-OFB keys loaded to see how it worked, but was not impressed with the raspy audio quality!

I had a feeling the KFDs would read it as such, I guess perhaps the software wasn't fully coded to recognize the algorithm ID but I'm not complaining. I'm just glad I figured it out, injust hate how I spend a few days looking for an answer, then give up and come on here to post and the same day I end up finding the answer on my own randomly.

I never used DES-XL before either, but since it's on securenet mode, I am assuming it's running the DES-XL with CSVD encoding? Making it a potential issue with running other radio brands that are not motorola? Hopefully I am wrong about that part.

Normally I would be happy with AES256 or even ADP, but running my radios on talk around mode with digital has been somewhat disappointing unless I use a repeater. I tried using the P25 mode with no crypto for talk around at the firearms range I worked at but the performance was terrible ( maybe 100 yards from the office to the range, on open ground with UHF) to the point where I had to use analog mode. I figure maybe with DES-XL I'll still get most of the range and the audio would be somewhat decent with some penalty compared to P25 mode. I can't remember where I saw the video but I guess when you compare DES to DES-XL, it seems that the reduction in range for DES is around 70% of what you would normally get in the clear and with DES-XL I will get 98 percent of my range thanks to the synchronization. We've had some pranksters knowingly screw with us at the range, and had a shooting during covid with an unhappy camper. I guess it might be a good idea to have some kind of secure comms considering the people we work around. Normally cellphones would be good enough but we're out in the middle of the country side where cellphone coverage is questionable and if you're lucky you can use DSL internet!

 

[mancow]

That doesn't sound right. Maybe they need an alignment or something. You should be getting excellent range with P25 simplex.

 

[wgbecks]

That doesn't sound right. Maybe they need an alignment or something. You should be getting excellent range with P25 simplex.

What mancow said. I have gotten excellent performance on P25 simplex with or without crypto turned on.

 

[saberthree]

That doesn't sound right. Maybe they need an alignment or something. You should be getting excellent range with P25 simplex.

yeah maybe, but it still seems to hit the repeaters on analog and digital still, so I assumed the alignment is still good. The big problem as far as getting it serviced is no one is able to do it, no one has the proper jig, I want to buy the jig but the few company that sells it wants at least 1300 bucks for it. I have asked other radio shops but no luck. So I've decided to invest in a XTS5000 instead, they're definitely more popular and easier to find people to service them. I still have the XTS4000 though, both in VHF and UHF.

 

[saberthree]

What mancow said. I have gotten excellent performance on P25 simplex with or without crypto turned on.

yeah, crypto shouldnt really do much as far as range goes, its still a digital signal regardless during transmission. What has been your experience with P25 simplex? what were the distances you were getting? were you using VHF or UHF?

 

[marcotor]

Our group regularly get several miles P25 simplex range when caravanning from one location to another, and this is in the dense RF jungle of Southern California, with a mix of 2500's, 5000's, various APX flavors, with a few Harris and Kenwoods mixed in. No difference in voice quality, signal strength, or range when using AES. We either hear you, or don't

 

[saberthree]

Our group regularly get several miles P25 simplex range when caravanning from one location to another, and this is in the dense RF jungle of Southern California, with a mix of 2500's, 5000's, various APX flavors, with a few Harris and Kenwoods mixed in. No difference in voice quality, signal strength, or range when using AES. We either hear you, or don't

Nice, are you using a mobile set up with antennas on the roof as well as an amp? Or just straight up handhelds? Are you using VHF or UHF? I was using UHF for awhile but at the moment I am switching to VHF. There are a ton of VHF ham repeaters in my area, but all the P25 stuff is in UHF. I'm jealous of you guys in SoCal you got all those nice repeaters that are probably operating on full power. Up where I am at, our repeaters are severely limited on the power we can use, sometimes 5 or 10 watts because of certain facilities that request no interference.

 

[marcotor]

Nice, are you using a mobile set up with antennas on the roof as well as an amp? Or just straight up handhelds? Are you using VHF or UHF? I was using UHF for awhile but at the moment I am switching to VHF. There are a ton of VHF ham repeaters in my area, but all the P25 stuff is in UHF. I'm jealous of you guys in SoCal you got all those nice repeaters that are probably operating on full power. Up where I am at, our repeaters are severely limited on the power we can use, sometimes 5 or 10 watts because of certain facilities that request no interference.

This is mostly handhelds and UHF, and in the (relatively) flat terrain of the San Gabriel Valley, altho I have made the trip from a bit west of the Pasadena area to Long Beach without artifacting with an XTS5000. Those Quantars for the most part, run positively chilly, with antennas scattered around the basin at 4000-6000 feet, there isn't a need for running anything near max power.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

yeah maybe, but it still seems to hit the repeaters on analog and digital still, so I assumed the alignment is still good. The big problem as far as getting it serviced is no one is able to do it, no one has the proper jig, I want to buy the jig but the few company that sells it wants at least 1300 bucks for it. I have asked other radio shops but no luck. So I've decided to invest in a XTS5000 instead, they're definitely more popular and easier to find people to service them. I still have the XTS4000 though, both in VHF and UHF.

What jig are you talking about? Even if its the RLN4460B, that is not really used if you just need a basic alignment. When we do alignments, we find that 90% of the issue is the reference oscillator drifting. If you have the tuner software, a programming cable and a calibrated frequency counter, you can align the ref osc yourself. Add in a good power meter, some cable and adapters and a dummy load, and you can align TX power out as well.

To do the vocoder, you really need a service monitor that can display FM deviation, but I would bet a dollar your ref osc and TXPO are in need of alignment.

 

[saberthree]

What jig are you talking about? Even if its the RLN4460B, that is not really used if you just need a basic alignment. When we do alignments, we find that 90% of the issue is the reference oscillator drifting. If you have the tuner software, a programming cable and a calibrated frequency counter, you can align the ref osc yourself. Add in a good power meter, some cable and adapters and a dummy load, and you can align TX power out as well.

To do the vocoder, you really need a service monitor that can display FM deviation, but I would bet a dollar your ref osc and TXPO are in need of alignment.

The way the XTS4000 is designed, you're supposed to slap on a jig on the back of the radio and connect a cable to the RF service port underneath where the battery usually goes, according to the service manual. I guess the jig looks like a typical battery eliminator but with a hole to connect a cable through. I'm not sure if you can connect to the antenna port, it's not like your typical antenna port where you see that pin in the middle, the RF energy is being transmitted solely where the threads are when the antenna connects to the radio. I'm trying to find alternate solutions but I don't have any experience with tuning radios whatsoever

 

[Echo4Thirty]

The way the XTS4000 is designed, you're supposed to slap on a jig on the back of the radio and connect a cable to the RF service port underneath where the battery usually goes, according to the service manual. I guess the jig looks like a typical battery eliminator but with a hole to connect a cable through. I'm not sure if you can connect to the antenna port, it's not like your typical antenna port where you see that pin in the middle, the RF energy is being transmitted solely where the threads are when the antenna connects to the radio. I'm trying to find alternate solutions but I don't have any experience with tuning radios whatsoever

Ahh ok. I was going on the thread title. You can still align the Ref Osc with a frequency counter, but TXPO and the rest will need the jig.

 

[saberthree]

This is mostly handhelds and UHF, and in the (relatively) flat terrain of the San Gabriel Valley, altho I have made the trip from a bit west of the Pasadena area to Long Beach without artifacting with an XTS5000. Those Quantars for the most part, run positively chilly, with antennas scattered around the basin at 4000-6000 feet, there isn't a need for running anything near max power.

That sounds pretty sweet, unfortunately for me we don't have too many P25 guys but we do have a few P25 repeaters in UHF. Though everytime I connect to the P25 repeater, no one is ever on. Ironically, I'm focusing on VHF now because I'm living more closer to nature nowadays where there's more trees than buildings, so my only options around here are VHF analog

 

[saberthree]

Ahh ok. I was going on the thread title. You can still align the Ref Osc with a frequency counter, but TXPO and the rest will need the jig.

No worries, easy mistake. I was using the XTS4000 in UHF ten years ago when I was the range master. I tried to use the P25 mode with the office but yeah maybe the radios were out of tune, or at least one of them were. I would hear the convo 70 percent of the time and randomly would hear this weird kind of digital lag. I recently switched over to VHF for the XTS4000 and picked up an XTS5000 as well. Because of my bad experience in the past with P25, I wanted to try DES-XL in analog mode, which lead me to making this post. I did a few small tests with P25 simplex mode on the VHF and they seem to be doing well so far, but I'd like to do a few tests at a distance. Hopefully I can do that this week with some random friends when we're fishing. As much as I love my XTS4000, it's increasingly difficult to find parts or someone to service them. I may have to just go to the XTS5000 completely.

 

[saberthree]

Ahh ok. I was going on the thread title. You can still align the Ref Osc with a frequency counter, but TXPO and the rest will need the jig.

Forgive my ignorance, is the TXPO basically fine tuning the power output? I can probably take the radios in to the radio shop to do the ref osc stuff if it's that simple. I don't have a calibrated frequency counter unless you count the rtl sdr dongles, lol.

I guess I should just save up to get the jig while they're still in existence, so I can keep these radios up and running for the foreasable future. I just hope I can keep a decent source for batteries, or find someone to custom make the batteries in the long run. I just like how compact and discreet these radios look without people giving me too much terrible looks compared to a huge radio like the xts5000. Most of the time people just assume I have some kind of really old work phone, I can live with that.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

TXPO is power out, you say you are having hard time decoding on RX. This really makes me think the REF osc is the culprit. Analog is much more forgiving than P25 as far as frequency error. Start there and then move on to TXPO and the deviation limit/balance to adjust the vocoder, although I do not really see any reason those could not be done with the antenna and the service monitor picking up the radio sitting on the desk via its antenna.

As old as these radios are, and the weird hardware you need, I suspect the last time it was aligned was at Motorola prior to being sent to the customer.

We have realigned a ton of ref oscs on XTS5000s which use similar RF chains and it makes a WORLD of difference on both RX and TX.