2005-2008 VIPER Discussion (Archive)

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jeffmulter

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>> For example, Catawba County wants to spend $130,000 of FY 2004 Homeland Security money for VHF narrowband radios.

Personally, that sounds like a good move to me.

Even if the county has intentions of moving to another band and / or trunking in the future, it won't happen for a few years.

With sheriffs, fire and ems all on high band, and many of the surrounding public safety agencies on high band, the radios will get their use. The county will now be able to go after some of the splinter channels it couldn't license in the past.

In a couple of years, the FCC mandates would require them to move to narrowbanding, anyway.


Jeff Multer
 

Grog

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My head is still spinning from our "Sherriff's" plans to buy the biggest, silliest, "command post" around. There are ways to use the funds where they can actually be useful.



pboy said:
Grog said:
VIPER Year Zero (powerpoint) shows Lincoln Co? I guess I have some VIPERolgy to study :lol:

You might want to do a search of the minutes of your county government's meetings for the last couple of years. These are usually online at the county website.

You can gain insight into the communications mentality of the local officials spending all this federal funding.

For example, Catawba County wants to spend $130,000 of FY 2004 Homeland Security money for VHF narrowband radios.
 

CCHLLM

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As to going to 700, it's in the cards for a huge number of systems, and there's not much infrastructure to change beyond some base stations and some antennas (if necessary), which, in addition to feedlines, would be due for change out anyway by the time that freq change would take place, if it falls within the usual state "timetable." The newer Quantar base stations in place are both analog and digital and 700 capable, but the earlier ones are not, and the combiners are reportedly 700 capable with mods. I've not seen anything that wouldn't be a minor thing compared to the initial cost and logistics of going to 800 mHz, and most of it is, as I understand it, part of a trade-out deal with MotherMoto anyway. Get used to the idea that it's probably gonna happen and that the cell companies are bearing part of the costs, too.

When you read the minutes of your local governing organizations, don't be shocked by what you may find. Boy oh boy, does it ever reveal some realities of some of the participant's individual agendas, too. There are times I cannot believe we keep electing some of these goobers to offices where they can spend our money in complete ignorance of what they're really buying. Anyway, what to look for is how they came to the conclusions they've reached. The process usually includes discussions of each others' ignorance, and consultants, some of which are able to recognize a radio two times out of three, and the ubiquitous sales people who know how to sell but know little of the realities of what they're selling. The end user is the one who has to deal with those realities, good or bad or indifferent.

Sorry if it offends anyone, but yes, I'm a cynic by experience, not by predisposition.
 

pboy

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In regards to Catawba County spending Homeland Security funds for existing VHF communications, it seems that this defeats the purpose.

The intent of the federal grant money is interoperable radio communications. How does buying narrowband equipment make anything interoperable? It is just compliance with an upcoming FCC mandate.
 

CCHLLM

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Once again, interoperability ain't rocket science, and the interoperability goals do seem to be grossly misunderstood here. Generically speaking, interoperability is not aimed at having interoperability on your main operating channels, it's aimed at having common channels and formats of interoperability that the comm centers and all units can take advantage of. You can have any freq and any kind of system you want for your day-to-day ops. It's when you switch over to the channels you have designated as your interops channels that you are required to meet interops parameters. If they are of differing frequency, technology, and format, then somewhere along the line, there has to be an interface that converts your format to the APCO 25 interoperability standard, and there are predetermined standards for doing that, too.

The local, state, and federal band plans already have certain agreed-upon channels designated as common channels for interoperability in your respective jurisdictions and services. If you have a 450 mHz LTR system and another jurisdiction has 150 mHz and the state has the 800 mHz system, then all you have to do is link the COMMON INTEROPERABILITY channels together through an interface that enters each respective system at the controller level. Most likely, that's where the state sites will come into play. The state sites will be the ones to have the interops interfaces, and it's there that the controller level interfaces will take place. The simple thing to do would be for the counties involved to buy the interface equipment and have it installed at the state sites. The state has already provided the ACU1000 interface units to be installed at some of their sites, and some are in place and operating, although they're not tied to the microwave system as yet. And yes, the one for Troop D at Cane Mtn in Alamance County is in place and does function, but again, it is not tied to anything yet. Once it's tied, there's your connection to the state's APCO 25 channels.

More important, the ACU1000 has the capability to provide interconnection through radios on each respective frequency like a cross-band repeater of sorts (bad, very bad), or through a port connection to the respective system controllers (good, very good). If the controllers happen to be co-located with the state equipment, that's a no brainer, but a simple full duplex microwave or other RF link (good) or wireline link (not as good) can make the connections if they are at separate locations. This has been done for decades in utility grid systems, etc., and covers both SCADA and voice.
 

jeffmulter

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>> The intent of the federal grant money is interoperable radio communications. How does buying narrowband equipment make anything interoperable?

All the high band frequencies that have been designated for "interoperability" - as opposed to mutual aid - are narrow band splinter frequencies in the 151, 154, 155, 158, 159, 162, 163, 167, 168, 169, 170, 172 and 173 MHz ranges.

These frequencies cover both interagency and incident response communications, in repeated and simplex modes, with both local and federal government agencies.

Sadly, I'm familiar with fire and ems agencies in the Unifour area that have licensed high band splinter channels, without having radio equipment that can operate on those frequencies. Why did they do so ? .... because the frequency coordinator told them those were the only frequencies available.


Jeff
 

pboy

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Yes, Jeff, ...but what can an interopt splinter frequency do that an existing mutual aid channel can't? Now if it is to serve as an access point to VIPER that is another story.

Why not spend all possible monies on getting VIPER to be the best that it can be. There are so many common interests to be served by one single
project. If there are legitimate ways or even loopholes to get federal grants applied to VIPER from the local level, do it!
 

CCHLLM

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pboy, yer second question hit the nail on the head and Jeff's answer hit the reply nail squarely. It makes economic sense to build out a system that is the full Magilla, not piece one together from a plethora of disjointed political decisions. The counties that have decided to do their own thing are/were apparently ignorant of what they were buying into, sold a bill of goods, or have a rock in their craw where the state is involved.

Technically speaking, putting the 'splinters" or other freqs/systems into VIPER at the control level is not difficult, but there's no guarantee the state will allow that course beyond a transition period, if at all, and you can bet that some will want to do it by crossbanding to save money, which doesn't work with conventional simplex to trunking, BTW. Interconnection has to be peer-to-peer (controller-to-controller). With simplex or basic conventional single receiver repeaters, there's no peer to the trunking controller. You can multicast that way with the trunking system being the primary radio, but without a comparable interface, there's no reliable way to "handshake" the trunked system for access from the conventional side. Access requires a way to receive the access grant signal (handshake), and without that you can't know whether you got one without keying, then letting up on the key on your conventional simplex or semi-duplex radio. That action itself will likely net you loss of any access you might have gotten, so all is for naught. That's where the deeper interface is necessary, and even those are not always satisfactory.
 

Grog

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The thing to think about is $$$$$

Lincoln Co still has Deputies using HT600s & GM300s. The money for a $1500-$4000 radio will not be there. They'll end up issueing a HT and there will be no money for mobiles. Didn't Lexington Co SC do that? VFDs will never have the money to equipe the trucks with 800/700 gear, let alone HTs.

I guess when we get the lottery, the agency heads can buy tickets :lol:
 

CCHLLM

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Some counties will get 800 mHz across the board for LE through the grants, but will get new, less expensive narrowband (maybe even LTR trunked) radios for the fire and rescue service and utilities/public works through other alternative and associated grants. They'll have 800 mHz units in the trucks for the mutual aid interops aspects, and officers/supervisors/command staff will be issued 800 portables and some mobiles for their agency vehicles, or personal vehicles in the case of some volunteer command staff. If their command and operational protocols deem this setup as satisfactory, then I guess the rest of us'll just have to accept it, but it ain't the way I'd do things if I were King. I don't like carrying one radio sometimes, much less two radios, and that's from personal experience as a command officer in a county with multiple frequency ranges.
 

pboy

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Finally found a NC Homeland Security budget document defining the technical qualifications for a VIPER partnership:

"Infrastructure: must be based on the Motorola SmartZone 4.1 mixed-
mode system and Project 25 compliant.

Subscriber units (radios): must be digital and can be configured for or
upgradeable to, OmniLink. Only agencies which currently operate under
VIPER compatible infrastructure, that is fully operational, will be
considered."
 

pboy

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Looking at the RR database posting for the Wake County 800MHz system, some interesting VIPER related talkgroups are:

WC ROAM1
WC ROAM2

State EMS
State Fire
State LEO
State Calling Channel

The statewide roaming feature is a nice "bell and whistle" for the county users.

Trying to get some feedback on how 2 EDACS systems in surrounding counties are being tied in by VIPER.
 

CCHLLM

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Just a guess, but as I mentioned earlier, I'd bet they'll be able to keep their EDACS infrastructure for daily ops, and if necessary, purchase under grants new mobiles and portables that are VIPER capable and will utilize the state's sites in those counties for the access.
 

pboy

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It has something to do with patching talkgroups through ACU1000 bridging at a NCSHP site from what I gather.
 

CCHLLM

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As do I, but I haven't heard how the hub site is going to be tied in, or even which site will be the hub for that area - prolly Blue Ridge Rd, maybe? As I understand it, some are to be routed to the controller level as Smartzone/Smartnet, and some are to be routed through the ACUs. I can only assume that the ones routed directly would have to be local Motorola system units, and any other formats would have to be tied through the ACUs. As you know, with the digital microwave system in place, the units being patched don't even have to be co-located with a particular ACU. With that expansive routing capability, Boone and Oriental could become a part of the Wake system, ha ha :lol: .
 

pboy

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The misconception I had was that ACU bridging would link incompatible protocols (EDACS, non-trunked, etc.) to VIPER.

It can but won't because the state has laid out a plan that is standards driven. If you are not using the specified standard you don't get to talk at all.

Have I finally got this straight?
 

CCHLLM

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I think you've got it straight as to what the state is telling everyone. As I understand it, the standard applies only to talking on the designated APCO 25 mutual aid/interops talkgroups. The rest of it has nothing that says yer analog Smartzone, EDACS, LTR, #303 peach can w/digital string, etc. has to comply.

If I put myself in the shoes of a non-APCO 25 system user, it would seem to me that as long as I had an APCO 25 capable mobile, portable, whatever, that is programmed to talk APCO 25 format on those designated channels, I'm in compliance with the fed and state requirements regardless of whatever other format the rest of the channels in my radio may be.
 

CCHLLM

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If the state interops band plan is 700/800 mHz (and it is), then yes, they'd have to be APCO 25 700/800, but also yes, 150 and 450 refarming is targeted toward APCO 25, and VA's STARS system is most definitely APCO 25.
 

pboy

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Sorry wx4cbh.

I was in the process of editing the post that you have already commented on.

If a county goes VHF APCO-25 why should the state have a problem with granting VIPER partnership.

The APCO protocol is not a frequency bound protocol.

That was the point I was trying to make in the original post that I deleted
by mistake.
 

pboy

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I came across a mapping of the microwave paths that the state 800 MHz network is using.

It shows SHP digital and analog microwave links.

It shows UNC/SHP shared digital. I assume this connects all the UNC TV sites.

Two other types are just listed as Spread Spectrum and 900 MHz. Who owns these?

One of the 900 MHz category runs from Baker Mtn to Pores Knob to an unidentified site in Ashe County.

http://www.cjin.jus.state.nc.us/Minutes/2004minutes/VIPERBDJune_files/frame.htm

Look at #28 VIPER Tactical Sites
 
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