Paysonscanner
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You are correct. I missed the difference.
2020 Arizona Wildfires
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You are correct. I missed the difference.
KB7MIB
Member
PFDRDC A-6 and K-14.
It sounds like A-6 can't make it all the way across the fire, so they are using K-14 to supplement that.
John
Peoria
It sounds like A-6 can't make it all the way across the fire, so they are using K-14 to supplement that.
John
Peoria
KD7JVRinAZ
Member
Is that why they're working it on K Deck 14 instead of A Deck, because of reception.? Thot it unusual they're working a fire on K Deck.
Paysonscanner
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You typed 168.5600 for National Flight Following and I think that is a transposition typo. National Flight Following is 168.6500. Thanks for noting these frequencies. I've been working with a database administrator "cellphone" on the federal listings for Arizona. I'm up here in a bit of a radio hole in Payson and can't receive anything from White Tanks or any of the other BLM Phoenix District repeater sites and of course, none of their tactical traffic. I'm working on a thread for people to confirm the BLM frequency information I have. Listing frequencies used at an incident if the most valuable information we can get. A big thanks to you!
KB7MIB
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I believe they were using both. I believe that A-6 was the tactical, and that K-14 was various sector commands.
John
Peoria
clover509
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@Paysonscanner Yes, that is a typo and my mistake. I will add that the BLM tactical traffic and Phoenix FD A-6 VHF traffic was at times very weak, almost unreadable.
And, as an aside, I am hearing very short comms on BLM Crew 2/Federal Common freq of 168.3500 MHz, PL 167.9. Not sure if that is related to mop up at the Purcell Fire or if there are fire crews transiting through the area.
And to echo paysonscanner, thanks to the DB and forum admins and to everyone that contributes!
And, as an aside, I am hearing very short comms on BLM Crew 2/Federal Common freq of 168.3500 MHz, PL 167.9. Not sure if that is related to mop up at the Purcell Fire or if there are fire crews transiting through the area.
And to echo paysonscanner, thanks to the DB and forum admins and to everyone that contributes!
Paysonscanner
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Some Tips for Listening to Large Fires with Federal Involvement
The Southwest Geographical Area Coordination Center (GACC) has designated 168.3500 as the "travel channel." A few other GACC's have done the same. When I lived in California a travel net was developed, complete with a repeater system, that covered much of the state with an output of 169.1250. The system was built and maintained by the USFS. It was handy for engine strike teams and hotshot crews. Employees were told to use simplex most of the time. Various dispatch centers would monitor assigned repeaters. From our Sierra Nevada foothill county we could hear some of the simplex traffic on I-5 and CA 99. That was often the first we heard of large fires in southern California as resources from the north were shifted south. All agencies, including CDF/OES/local used this net. Then the system, repeater hardware and all, was taken away from the USFS for mysterious reasons, none of our friends in the USFS, NPS and CDF could tell us who got the system. About that time cell phones were increasingly available making it easier for dispatch centers and the two GACC's to contact individual crews, overhead, apparatus for reassignments and such while they were on the road. Now years later I think the USFS or NIFC have the frequencies again. The travel net is now on 153.7550, the output frequency for the "California Emergency Service Radio System." There are a ton of microwave linked repeaters on this system, but crews are only allowed simplex use.
Since then, the four new ( as of 2005) narrowband federal government wide, all agency, itinerant frequencies are now to be used for Interagency Hotshot Crew "intra-crew nets" for logistical, not tactical, purposes only. Each crew has been assigned a specific CTCSS tone for TX and RX to reduce interference between crews and from other federal agencies. The frequencies are as follows: 163.7125 Intra-Crew 1, 167.1375 Intra-Crew 2, 168.6125 Intra-Crew 3 and 173.6250 Intra-Crew 4. Some national parks and national forests have 1 and 3 in their primary channel group labeled "tac," "work" or "common." This can complicate the situation, especially if a fire is located in a NPS unit. National forests typically have separately regionally/locally assigned work or tac freqs., but the NPS rarely does. When late Hubby and I took road trips we would listen to the Intra-crew frequencies, especially when passing crew buggies, to listen in on anything the crew was talking about. Sometimes they would chat on them to pass the time on long drives.
The travel frequency designations, as well as regional tacticals, have been intended to keep 168.2000, NIFC Tac 2, for tactical use only on national Type I and Type II incidents. Tac 2 started out in California in the late 60's and 70's labeled as "Crew Net" and was often the only tac frequency radios had in them. The only tacs available then were using the Forest Nets simplex. Often times crews would use Tac 2 as a travel net as well, sometimes interfering with incidents they were passing in route to their assignments. For late Hubby and I listening at a higher elevation the freq. sounded like CB with everyone talking over each other. At one time the only air to air tactics, air dispatch and air to ground frequency was 168.6250 so it was a similar mess on what was then called simply "Air Net." My Daddy just related all this history to me.
Scanner owners should consider programming in these four frequencies. Again, it should not be tactical traffic, but can add to picture that radio comms paint for an incident.
Another couple of frequencies to include for large incidents is 168.5500 and 168.350 CTCSS 123.0. 168.5500 used to be the BLM's "air net." It has nationwide clearance or authorization. It is now assigned exclusively for smokejumper air to ground, using a CTCSS of 123.0 and to helicopter "Rappel/RADS" air to ground use with a CTCSS of 110.9. RADS stands for "rope assisted delivery system" AKA delivery of cargo using sling or net loads. At one time 168.350 CTCSS 123.0 was designated for smokejumper tactical with a non-exclusive nationwide assignment. Daddy and I have been looking all over late Hubby's notebooks for an agency reference for this, but are only finding it hand written on a NIFC official listing of all the nationwide radio support cache frequencies in my love's handwriting (engineer printing actually!).
Another piece of info for both initial and extended attack incidents is that 123.975 at one time was assigned by the FAA as "ATB Comm" for almost all of the Air Tanker Bases in the nation. In recent years the FAA has stated that this is no longer possible so some areas have different ATB comms freqs. In Arizona all ATB's use 123.975. In neighboring New Mexico it is 120.875.
I have a ton of info for specifics like apparatus/employee designators (some refer to these as call signs. but call signs are KOC423 and such), all repeater locations, Air Guard and National Flight Following remote base locations, etc. that would be useful for careful listeners. It isn't really RRDB material and I've been told is Wiki material. However, I'm allergic to the Wiki, both as a reader and especially as a writer. It's pretty convoluted!
The Southwest Geographical Area Coordination Center (GACC) has designated 168.3500 as the "travel channel." A few other GACC's have done the same. When I lived in California a travel net was developed, complete with a repeater system, that covered much of the state with an output of 169.1250. The system was built and maintained by the USFS. It was handy for engine strike teams and hotshot crews. Employees were told to use simplex most of the time. Various dispatch centers would monitor assigned repeaters. From our Sierra Nevada foothill county we could hear some of the simplex traffic on I-5 and CA 99. That was often the first we heard of large fires in southern California as resources from the north were shifted south. All agencies, including CDF/OES/local used this net. Then the system, repeater hardware and all, was taken away from the USFS for mysterious reasons, none of our friends in the USFS, NPS and CDF could tell us who got the system. About that time cell phones were increasingly available making it easier for dispatch centers and the two GACC's to contact individual crews, overhead, apparatus for reassignments and such while they were on the road. Now years later I think the USFS or NIFC have the frequencies again. The travel net is now on 153.7550, the output frequency for the "California Emergency Service Radio System." There are a ton of microwave linked repeaters on this system, but crews are only allowed simplex use.
Since then, the four new ( as of 2005) narrowband federal government wide, all agency, itinerant frequencies are now to be used for Interagency Hotshot Crew "intra-crew nets" for logistical, not tactical, purposes only. Each crew has been assigned a specific CTCSS tone for TX and RX to reduce interference between crews and from other federal agencies. The frequencies are as follows: 163.7125 Intra-Crew 1, 167.1375 Intra-Crew 2, 168.6125 Intra-Crew 3 and 173.6250 Intra-Crew 4. Some national parks and national forests have 1 and 3 in their primary channel group labeled "tac," "work" or "common." This can complicate the situation, especially if a fire is located in a NPS unit. National forests typically have separately regionally/locally assigned work or tac freqs., but the NPS rarely does. When late Hubby and I took road trips we would listen to the Intra-crew frequencies, especially when passing crew buggies, to listen in on anything the crew was talking about. Sometimes they would chat on them to pass the time on long drives.
The travel frequency designations, as well as regional tacticals, have been intended to keep 168.2000, NIFC Tac 2, for tactical use only on national Type I and Type II incidents. Tac 2 started out in California in the late 60's and 70's labeled as "Crew Net" and was often the only tac frequency radios had in them. The only tacs available then were using the Forest Nets simplex. Often times crews would use Tac 2 as a travel net as well, sometimes interfering with incidents they were passing in route to their assignments. For late Hubby and I listening at a higher elevation the freq. sounded like CB with everyone talking over each other. At one time the only air to air tactics, air dispatch and air to ground frequency was 168.6250 so it was a similar mess on what was then called simply "Air Net." My Daddy just related all this history to me.
Scanner owners should consider programming in these four frequencies. Again, it should not be tactical traffic, but can add to picture that radio comms paint for an incident.
Another couple of frequencies to include for large incidents is 168.5500 and 168.350 CTCSS 123.0. 168.5500 used to be the BLM's "air net." It has nationwide clearance or authorization. It is now assigned exclusively for smokejumper air to ground, using a CTCSS of 123.0 and to helicopter "Rappel/RADS" air to ground use with a CTCSS of 110.9. RADS stands for "rope assisted delivery system" AKA delivery of cargo using sling or net loads. At one time 168.350 CTCSS 123.0 was designated for smokejumper tactical with a non-exclusive nationwide assignment. Daddy and I have been looking all over late Hubby's notebooks for an agency reference for this, but are only finding it hand written on a NIFC official listing of all the nationwide radio support cache frequencies in my love's handwriting (engineer printing actually!).
Another piece of info for both initial and extended attack incidents is that 123.975 at one time was assigned by the FAA as "ATB Comm" for almost all of the Air Tanker Bases in the nation. In recent years the FAA has stated that this is no longer possible so some areas have different ATB comms freqs. In Arizona all ATB's use 123.975. In neighboring New Mexico it is 120.875.
I have a ton of info for specifics like apparatus/employee designators (some refer to these as call signs. but call signs are KOC423 and such), all repeater locations, Air Guard and National Flight Following remote base locations, etc. that would be useful for careful listeners. It isn't really RRDB material and I've been told is Wiki material. However, I'm allergic to the Wiki, both as a reader and especially as a writer. It's pretty convoluted!
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Paysonscanner
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A little known fact, with transpositions the difference between the two is always divisible by 9. In case 65-56 is 9. The same is true for 23 and 32, 34 and 43 and so forth. Some transpositions have multiples of 9 in difference, example if 168.350 was typed as 168.530 the difference is .18. It even works for numbers on each side of a point, example 168.350 and 163.850 has a difference of 4.5, which is 9 x .5. In the "old days" we had to use paper spreadsheets for all sorts of things and finding errors on the sheet and on adding machine "tapes" was easier when we used this little trick.
Thanks Dad for the 33 year retired engineer perspective! Nearly useless trivia for the day!
Paysonscanner
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Some identifiers for AZ aviation resources. The Southwest GACC lists these resources in AZ:
Air Attack 305 Sierra Vista Airport. Pilot and the Air Tactics Group Supervisor on board.
Air Attack 312 Phoenix Mesa Airport. Pilot and the Air Tactics Group Supervisor on board.
Lead 33 is a pilot only unit that assists air tankers with drops
Bravo 33 has the Lead 33 pilot plus an Air Tactics Supervisor. A Bravo unit is called an Air Supervision Module and can be used as a lead plane and Air Tactics Supervisor simultaneously.
Everything has a "3" in it as the USFS Southwestern Region is Region 3 in the Forest Service. The "05" comes from forest #5 in the region, which is the Coronado. The "12" comes from forest #12 in the region, which is the Tonto. I think I will make a submission to the database so each forest is also identified by its number, as lots of apparatus, personnel and aircraft use this number in the identifier.
Once an incident grows beyond initial attack by going into a second operational period or the next day it is called extended attack. Air Tactics Group Supervisors are then identified as "(Incident Name) Air Attack." Example "Purcell Air Attack," given the name of this incident.
Air Attack 305 Sierra Vista Airport. Pilot and the Air Tactics Group Supervisor on board.
Air Attack 312 Phoenix Mesa Airport. Pilot and the Air Tactics Group Supervisor on board.
Lead 33 is a pilot only unit that assists air tankers with drops
Bravo 33 has the Lead 33 pilot plus an Air Tactics Supervisor. A Bravo unit is called an Air Supervision Module and can be used as a lead plane and Air Tactics Supervisor simultaneously.
Everything has a "3" in it as the USFS Southwestern Region is Region 3 in the Forest Service. The "05" comes from forest #5 in the region, which is the Coronado. The "12" comes from forest #12 in the region, which is the Tonto. I think I will make a submission to the database so each forest is also identified by its number, as lots of apparatus, personnel and aircraft use this number in the identifier.
Once an incident grows beyond initial attack by going into a second operational period or the next day it is called extended attack. Air Tactics Group Supervisors are then identified as "(Incident Name) Air Attack." Example "Purcell Air Attack," given the name of this incident.
Cottonwood Fire - Queen Valley area
Quite an airshow on ADS-B:
LEAD63
T-### (SEAT)
T-160 (RJ85)
T-164 (RJ85)
T-840 (SEAT)
T-898 (SEAT)
T-912 (DC-10 VLAT)
Too far away to hear any traffic, but heard T164 enroute fro Prescott Tanker Base contact Lead 63 on 126.975 at 50 miles out.
Quite an airshow on ADS-B:
LEAD63
T-### (SEAT)
T-160 (RJ85)
T-164 (RJ85)
T-840 (SEAT)
T-898 (SEAT)
T-912 (DC-10 VLAT)
Too far away to hear any traffic, but heard T164 enroute fro Prescott Tanker Base contact Lead 63 on 126.975 at 50 miles out.
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And AA N32EA, N802SG (another SEAT) showed up.
Tankers appear to be reloading from Mesa Gateway; the VLAT from Sierra Vista; the SEATS from Marana
Tankers appear to be reloading from Mesa Gateway; the VLAT from Sierra Vista; the SEATS from Marana
Paysonscanner
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Lead 63 is from USFS Region 6, Oregon/Washington. I have no idea where in R6 the aircraft is based. The pilot is Air Supervision Module (ASM) certified so you might hear him go to Bravo 63. He will have to pick up an Air Tactics Supervisor to become an ASM first. A pilot alone can't be an ASM. NIFC may have shifted some R6 and R4 aircraft to R3 due to fire danger and very low fuel moisture. They might be temporarily based at an AZ or NM air attack base. June is the peak of the human caused fire season in AZ/NM. How the monsoon arrives governs the size and intensity of the early July lightning fire season. If it begins fairly dry, with only virga and lots of lightning, the largest fires of the season can occur in July.
All USFS lead planes identify by the USFS region first:
R1 Northern Rockies (Northern Idaho, Montana, North Dakota)
R2 Rocky Mountain (Colorado, most of Wyoming, most of South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas)
R3 Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico)
R4 Intermountain (southern Idaho, Utah, Nevada, portions of Calif. (Humboldt-Toiyabe) and Wyoming (Bridger-Teton)
R5 Nearly all of California (17 national forests - 18 if the Trinity is counted separately and the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit)
R6 Oregon and Washington
R7 Non existent. Consolidated with R9 in the 1950's. Daddy says its an inside joke that if someone screws up badly, they get sent to R7.
R8 Southern, more or less south of the Mason-Dixon line Texas to Atlantic Ocean
R9 Eastern, Mississippi River s-tates to Atlantic Ocean north of Mason-Dixon line
R10 Alaska (only 2 national forests, but they cover 20 million acres)
Geographical Area Coordination Centers (10) more or less follow the USFS regional boundaries. California has 2, but has more than 50% of the nation's fire management workload.
Washington D.C. Office lead/ASM aircraft ID with 0 or 7. There are 4 of them.
Alaska lead/ASM ID with "Alpha."
California Cal Fire ID with "Charlie."
BLM lead/ASM ID with "B" They have 7 of them, but I don't know where from.
Except for trainees, all lead pilots are ASM certified and MAFFS certified. MAFFS is "Modular Airborne Fire Fighting System" usually slid into a military C-130. The USFS now has some C-130's that were transferred to the agency from the Coast Guard. I think most will be used as standard air tankers, operated by a contractor. I think the military/national guards will be the only MAFFS mobilized.
Above dictated by my Daddy to me. Pretty sharp for 93!
All USFS lead planes identify by the USFS region first:
R1 Northern Rockies (Northern Idaho, Montana, North Dakota)
R2 Rocky Mountain (Colorado, most of Wyoming, most of South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas)
R3 Southwestern (Arizona, New Mexico)
R4 Intermountain (southern Idaho, Utah, Nevada, portions of Calif. (Humboldt-Toiyabe) and Wyoming (Bridger-Teton)
R5 Nearly all of California (17 national forests - 18 if the Trinity is counted separately and the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit)
R6 Oregon and Washington
R7 Non existent. Consolidated with R9 in the 1950's. Daddy says its an inside joke that if someone screws up badly, they get sent to R7.
R8 Southern, more or less south of the Mason-Dixon line Texas to Atlantic Ocean
R9 Eastern, Mississippi River s-tates to Atlantic Ocean north of Mason-Dixon line
R10 Alaska (only 2 national forests, but they cover 20 million acres)
Geographical Area Coordination Centers (10) more or less follow the USFS regional boundaries. California has 2, but has more than 50% of the nation's fire management workload.
Washington D.C. Office lead/ASM aircraft ID with 0 or 7. There are 4 of them.
Alaska lead/ASM ID with "Alpha."
California Cal Fire ID with "Charlie."
BLM lead/ASM ID with "B" They have 7 of them, but I don't know where from.
Except for trainees, all lead pilots are ASM certified and MAFFS certified. MAFFS is "Modular Airborne Fire Fighting System" usually slid into a military C-130. The USFS now has some C-130's that were transferred to the agency from the Coast Guard. I think most will be used as standard air tankers, operated by a contractor. I think the military/national guards will be the only MAFFS mobilized.
Above dictated by my Daddy to me. Pretty sharp for 93!
the coc averages about 120 non staff camp fires burning a year, am shock that they dont get more fires.
Paysonscanner
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Paysonscanner's dad here. I think what you have heard is "non stat" campfires. Non stat means they are "non statistical" and don't count for the forest's annual man caused fire total. When a fire has to be extinguished, but has not escaped the fire ring, it is not considered an "escaped" campfire. I'm not surprised that the Coconino has so many of these, the fire consciousness of the average Northern Arizona forest visitor is not very good. Probably 95% of people who don't put fires out are never identified. People who never put their fires out may have caused more than 1 larger wildland fires in their life, but they are long gone before the fire spreads.
yes non stat, I have been a wildland fire fighter from 1981 to 2016!
do you have a stream going for the forest service up there?
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