$4M radio system a 'paperweight'

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Thunderbolt

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BATTLE CREEK, Mich. -- An evaluation is under way to determine what is wrong with Battle Creek's new, almost $4 million police radio system.

"I am frustrated because of the problems," said Cmdr. Jackie Hampton, supervisor of the Patrol Division of the Battle Creek Police Department. "We are having dropped calls where the officers can't hear dispatch and dispatch can't hear the officers."

In March, police in the metropolitan area, including Battle Creek, Emmett Township and Springfield, replaced a VHF system with an 800-megahertz radio system. The system is paid for by a 4 percent E-911 telephone surcharge on area residents until 2015.

The new system allows users to be part of the Michigan Public Safety Communications System, a state-wide network of local, state and federal agencies.

"The 800s are the way to go," said Rob Coles, Springfield's public safety director. "It's a good system and the voice transmission is much clearer."

Neither Coles nor Captain Matt Saxton of the Calhoun County Sheriff Department have reported problems with the new radios.

"The switchover went smoother than I thought it would be," Saxton said. "We haven't had any major problems other than some training and getting used to the new system. And I have noticed better coverage throughout the whole county."

But Battle Creek and Emmett Township police have reported difficulties.

Battle Creek's Assistant City Manager Ken Tsuchiyama said Thursday city officials are working with the vendor, Motorola, to find the problem and he expects a status report today.

"We have to figure out what is causing it," he said. "We are not the technical folks, so our vendor brought in an engineer to try to help determine what is causing the problem."

He said suggested causes being investigated include the heavy traffic volume, not enough radio towers, using the system before a new dispatch center is built, and the decision to use a fully encrypted system, which prevents monitoring by police scanners.

But he said all those issues were anticipated and so far none have been determined as a problem.

"It is just frustrating for us because we don't have the technical expertise but we have the problems and we want it fixed," he said. "We share the concern (of officers) that we don't want (officers) or citizens put in a situation where safety is compromised. It is a serious concern that we are not taking lightly."

Emmett Lt. Tony Geigle agrees the system could be a good one.

"It is the latest in technology," Geigle said. "The concept is great. But it has been so unreliable. We get in buildings and can't get a signal and if you can't get a signal it's a dead stick. It's a paperweight."

That argument is echoed by the city officers.

"They spent millions of dollars to replace a system that wasn't broken and it is crap," said Battle Creek Officer Joe Wilder, president of the Police Officers Labor Council which represents patrol officers. "Since we got the radio system we have had nothing but problems."

Wilder said he has missed radio traffic from central dispatch.

"I was in my district and the call was a man with a gun or a domestic, and I heard other officers acknowledge but I never heard it," he said.

Wilder said officers don't have confidence in the system and are afraid that someone might be hurt because they can't reach other officers by radio.

"We can talk to everyone in the state but I can't talk to my own crew on the street," Wilder said. "I don't care if I can talk to Ithaca. We are saying we have a problem and we are talking about the communication system which, other than our gun, is our most important tool."

Hampton said the police administration also has complained about the system.

"We want to stay optimistic but it is getting tough," he said. "We have a lot of money and time involved in the 800 MHz and we want this system to work. I am not comfortable at all with the status of radio communications."

Battle Creek Commissioner Deb Owens said she met with City Manager Wayne Wiley last week after hearing about the problems.

"I have nothing against the 800," she said. "The purpose is good but if it is not working it is putting our officers at risk. What it boils down to is intermittent (coverage) and intermittent bothers me because one could cost the lives of one of our police officers.

"They claim they tested it but I don't know why the issues were not discovered," she said. "They are working on it and I know they will resolve it. They are on top of it but it is a little late."
 
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N_Jay

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This is an example of why you need a competent consultant, even when you have decided what you are going to buy.
 

zz0468

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$4 million? That seems kinda lowball.

I've lived through several new 800 MHz projects and, invariably, the same thing happens again and again. The competent consultant and engineers get over ridden by politics and finances. I've heard things said like "$50 million is too much. We have $20 million available". Rather than put the brakes on the project at that point, a slimmed down project with half the required sites and channel capacity is built. And then people wonder what went wrong. :roll:

Yes, I'm operating in a complete vacuum as to what's happened in Battle Creek, but the complaints are certainly familiar.
 

pinetree

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Sounds like The state of Delaware's system 50 million ++++++ and still cant talk from in a building. The paramedics go digital on a daily basis trying to talk to a hosp. Now the politicans dont want to fund the fixes. As to towers the state looks like a porcupine now, and at least 5 more should be put up. As to origional specs. they were written as to keep all out but motorola.
 
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N_Jay

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fleurycove said:
They should of put up more towers.

Great answer!

Where is the study to determine that it is the RIGHT answer.

(and we wonder how departments get into these messes?)
 

N4DES

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Exactly...time for them to hire a third party consultant to do a full evaluation, which they should of done in the first place.

When we did 813A we had a consultant on board that worked directly with the County's PM, myself, and another in-house comms engineer. 90% of the work was evaluated by our in-house staff and what we really used the consultant for was to be there for the last 10% of the inspections and acceptance testing, double check the loading numbers and coverage studies provided by Motorola, and for their PE seal which allowed us to have the State certify our system as required per Florida Statutes. Now I know we were probably the exception to the rule, but most LE & FR agencies have zero experience in doing this type of work and if they try to take it on they usually task an IT person with it who's RF experience is maybe setting up a hot spot.

It would be interesting to read their SOW to see what the coverage requirements are and what the results of the drive test were, if they were even required to do drive testing or are they overselling the system by trying to stretch the user base into areas not designed to cover in the first place.
 
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CCHLLM

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What would be really interesting is to see what the reported coverage study was based on. Unless specifically required to do so, the typical scenario by "consultants" is to project the coverage based on "95% coverage utilizing mixed mobile and portable radios". Oh, how often I've seen that phrase...... What that really means is that the coverage is actually based on solid MOBILE coverage in the hopes that the portable coverage will be "adequate," and the portable coverage then, in reality, becomes secondary.

Next step in the process is to issue all users portables to use when away from the mobile unit, which usually brings out the flaws in the "study." Well, sorry, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if you want 95% coverage with portables, you will have to take the mobile factor out of the equation and project coverage based on PORTABLES! If the required number of sites/infrastructure is reduced for whatever reasons, you need to EXPECT reduced coverage and traffic density handling capabilities.

Most of the time, the engineers are right on in their original projections, but misinformation, inadequate budgets, the "I don't want a radio tower near my house" crowds, and the inevitable under-the-table dealings that are ever-present in local politics will usually get in the way of progress. The resulting BS path that most public projects take make it extremely difficult to provide a working system for the poor sonofabitch that actually has to use the radio.

Rant mode: ON

Bottom line on "consultants": if the sonofabitch doesn't actually use a radio on a regular basis, there's little chance his/her overpriced paperwork and "radio coverage software" experience is worth more than what you'd pay for a roll of toilet paper. There are many of these out there, by the way.

Bottom line on politicians: if the sonofabitch doesn't actually use a radio on a regular basis, there's little chance his/her opinion at the meetings is worth what you use that roll of toilet paper for. Unfortunately for the system users, the bottom line often becomes who has the most political influence.

Rant mode: OFF

This rant will never make a difference in the BS, but it did make me feel better. :D
 
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N4DES

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When they state the 95/95 coverage requirement it is typically referenced as "in-building medium", in-building light, or outdoor. It is never generic and it is the vendor that drives this boat and not the consultant. The SOW is also always very specific so the vendor has something to fall back on when the customer complains that the system doesn't work in the local mall when a "in-building light" coverage system was purchased.

Again we don't know the facts as to what was specified or what the coverage maps look like so until we really know we are grasping at straws.
 

iMONITOR

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When these systems are bid, there should be some type of contractual performance guarantee in writing. This would put the financial burden for fixing it on the seller, resulting in better studies and more realistic proposals.

As long as tax payers continue to accept the current practices of government, and not hold anyone accountable, this will continue to happen. :mad:
 

Rick-Rock

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I was there when they were first testing the waters for the State Police use- their testing consisted of people driving around with XTS5000's holding them up in the air saying "(ID) can you hear me now?" What a f*ing joke. The system does seem to work rather well for the state now, 4-6 years later, they don't have much for problems inside city limits of Battle Creek or elsewhere, so coverage is not an issue (the city is only 100 sq. miles and pretty flat with the tallest building in town being 15-20 stories (and that's a federal office building!)) It is more likely to be the separate setup integrated for the city's use. Their old system worked perfectly, all they really needed to do was update their current radios and they would've been fine for a long time to come (some officers were still using issued HT600's and MT1000's).
 

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Hey, nothing wrong with the HT600's/MT's...I could see if they've seen continous service since their build date....but still, It blows my mind how terribly these new 800 systems seem to work sometimes. Unless your in a dense city, VHF should be a fine choice.
 

SCPD

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Vendor and Installer

N_Jay said:
This is an example of why you need a competent consultant, even when you have decided what you are going to buy.

I'm involved in a similar problem right now. I'm basically trying to talk the powers-to-be to just buy equipment from the Moto vendor. And go with another vendor to recommend and install what the company buys from Motorola. That way the consultant and installer isn't more interested in making money selling radios and infrastructure, and less interest in fixing the issues with the equipment already on hand.

I would venture to guess (and I have said this before in other forums) that if entities would change the coax and antenna at the base every ten years or so, and go with a new feedline every time a mobile is moved from one vehicle to another, that radio vendors wouldn't sell half the systems they do now.

20 to 30 year old coax leaking RF like a lawn sprinkler, going into a old antenna, is the reason the base can't hear a 25 watt mobile 20 miles away. And the vendor comes in and says "Yeah, that old VHF stuff isn't no good, you need a nice 800 mhz trunking system."
 
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N_Jay

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Wyandotte said:
I'm involved in a similar problem right now. I'm basically trying to talk the powers-to-be to just buy equipment from the Moto vendor. And go with another vendor to recommend and install what the company buys from Motorola. That way the consultant and installer isn't more interested in making money selling radios and infrastructure, and less interest in fixing the issues with the equipment already on hand.

. .. . .

Hu??? Sounds like you are trying to buy yourself a big problem.

You want to find a good INDEPENDENT consultant, then put out your RFP.

If you buy from "A" and have "B" install, when it does not work, the finger pointing will be all over the place, and eventually lend on you.
 

fleurycove

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It would appear EVENT15 is being patched to Battle Creek City PD. (Temp patch to TG: 3875)
I have not heard much on Event 11 witch was being used as (Temp patch to TG: 3875)
 

WayneH

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fleurycove said:
It would appear EVENT15 is being patched to Battle Creek City PD. (Temp patch to TG: 3875)
I have not heard much on Event 11 witch was being used as (Temp patch to TG: 3875)
People, please stay on topic or move to the proper forum. Thanks.
 

tj20

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So this part is not true? guote:"He (Battle Creek's Assistant City Manager Ken Tsuchiyama) said, ".......and the decision to use a fully encrypted system, which prevents monitoring by police scanners"

So he is right about not being technical or in the know
 

firetaz834

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I think the one thing people have forgotten is when dealing with the 95/95 coverage and adding finacial responsibility if the system fails. That is all well and good when your dealing with a business that if a transmission doesn't go through then you lost a service call or some other monitary item. Here lives are on the line.

And, I didn't even hear about having a redundant system in place (the VHF system) till this new system could be proven. Sounds like they put in the 800 and just yanked out the old system. What happens when you need to fall back.

When, I'm not out on the fireline (I'm a firefighter) I'm a Network Administrator and when we do a system upgrade we always have a backup in place in case of issue and that could be a system that is running transparently to the main system a second system that we could switch over too in case of issues or just a back-out plan in case of problem. I don't see any of this here and how much is the system causting $4 mill wow.....
 

N4DES

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For the 4 million they probably outfitted the troops with the subscriber units. If the infrastructure stayed static, which I assume that it did, they didn't do any or enough in-building testing.

This can be identified from the start without spending a dime on new gear. Sounds like someone didn't do their homework.
 
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