• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

Alternate control channels

Status
Not open for further replies.

chrismol1

P25 TruCking!
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,273
On P25 trunked systems, the alternate control channels. If a system ever gets bogged down and users start getting multiple bonks and queued, does it ever utilize the say the last alternate channel as a voice channel as a last resort or are these 3 alt control channels totally unavailable as a voice channel and sit idle for the sole purpose of backing up the other main control or other additional alternate control channels should a fault occur on the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th redundancy?
 

GTR8000

NY/NJ Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
15,875
Location
BEE00
An ASTRO 25 system can have up to 4 channels per site flagged as control channel capable. That does not preclude them from being used as traffic channels (voice/data), and in fact many systems frequently do have traffic carried on the ones that are not acting as the active control channel at any given time. Users should not encounter a system busy condition until all available channel resources are used, including the control capable channels, data channels, and BSI channel. Voice takes precedence over data, and so an active data channel should get preempted by a voice call if necessary.

The control channels are normally assigned preferences from most preferred (1) to least preferred (4).

Fun fact: The most protected channel at an ASTRO 25 site is actually the BSI channel (if provisioned), not the alternate control channels. The system will use those alternate control channels for traffic before it will use the BSI channel.
 
Last edited:

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
24,775
Location
NMO's installed, while-u-wait.
Fun fact: The most protected channel at an ASTRO 25 site is actually the BSI channel (if provisioned), not the alternate control channels. The system will use those alternate control channels for traffic before it will use the BSI channel.

Yep, my old SmartNet system was set up that way. When I built out the new NexEdge system, I did the same thing. 5 channels, 4 take turns being the control channel. The 5th channel is never a control channel, but handles the ID'ing for the site.
 

GTR8000

NY/NJ Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
15,875
Location
BEE00
Thankfully Motorola came to their senses a few years ago, and the BSI is now digitally encoded continuously over the control channel and traffic channels as of System Release 7.16 and later (provided the BSI is setup correctly in UNCW/the comparators, otherwise it broadcasts a null string). The FCC allows digital BSI in place of the old analog CWID on most bands when the trunked system is using digital modulation. That means no more need to reserve (waste) a channel as BSI capable for the CWID, allowing that channel to be in the regular rotation of traffic channels, making for better load balancing among site repeaters.
 

chrismol1

P25 TruCking!
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,273
Thank you, this is the technical replies that makes this site and is contributors very good. I've seen some systems use alt but didn't understand it's exact mechanics. I'm working my way thru a 600 page pdf titled Understanding your astro 25 trunking system

Has it ever occurred that the alts were in voice channel and the primary control was lost. I'd assume the alt would assume control after its voice message was complete but would the rest of the system seek out the other alts, but what would happen if all the alts were in use as voice for that brief seconds or however long, there would be no control channel radios would receive or even a 2nd control channel failure? A brief moment of bonk and then brief failsoft before another alt assume control after its release from voice? Or should this never happen?
 
Last edited:

GTR8000

NY/NJ Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
15,875
Location
BEE00
An example of a fairly common ASTRO 25 setup would be a simulcast cell comprised of 10 subsites using 10 frequencies. Ch 1 is flagged as the most preferred control channel, with Ch's 2, 3, and 4 the next preferred in that order. Ch 10 is the analog BSI channel. All channels are allowed to act as data channels (AVL/GPS being the most common usage).

ASTRO 25 systems will keep the control channel on the most preferred channel forever, until/unless that channel can no longer function properly. Literally forever, they do not rotate regularly as they did with 3600 systems. Note that with a simulcast cell, a channel failure at one subsite takes the channel out of service for the entire cell, in order to maintain the integrity of the simulcast.

If something happens with Ch 1 (repeater failure, illegal carrier, etc.), the system will roll to Ch 2. If Ch 2 is unusable, to Ch 3, and so on. Note that once the hardware condition is rectified with Ch 1, or the illegal carrier clears, the site will roll back to that channel as soon as possible. Normally the site will wait a minimum of 60 seconds before rolling back to the most preferred, even if the condition clears sooner than that, to provide some stability for the subscribers. If the condition on Ch 1 clears while control is on Ch 2, and before that 60 seconds expires, Ch 1 can be used for voice/data traffic if necessary. Once Ch 1 is clear and functional again, control rolls back to it.

When the site gets near capacity, it will first start to use the inactive control capable channels for traffic, then will use the BSI channel when those three are in use, and finally subscribers will get a system busy bonk due to lack of channel resources. Of course if this is a TDMA system, all slots of all channels would need to be in use before that happens. If one of the channels is carrying FDMA data as the site nears capacity, the data gets preempted by voice traffic.

If the site is at full saturation when the control channel fails, voice transmissions will be allowed to complete, and idle subscribers will likely get an Out of Range or Failsoft message (depending on how the system/site is setup), as there would be no control channel on the air at that point. If this is a multi-site system, those subscribers may try to roam to another site. Once the first voice transmission is complete on any of the other control-capable channels, the system will roll control over to that channel. So yes, it's certainly possible to lose all control channel functionality for a period of time. Hopefully the system/site was designed better to prevent that level of saturation and failure, but stuff happens in the real world.
 

GTR8000

NY/NJ Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
15,875
Location
BEE00
I'm working my way thru a 600 page pdf titled Understanding your astro 25 trunking system
If that's the 6881009Y05-O document from 2004, note that it applies to System Release 6.4 (absolutely ancient), and there are going to be details in there that no longer apply to modern ASTRO 25 systems. In the nearly two decades that have passed since that document was published, there have been countless advancements in P25 trunking technology. IP backhaul, linear amplifiers, TDMA, LSM/H-DQPSK modulation for simulcast, etc. The G Series hardware that modern ASTRO 25 systems have been built on for the past decade wasn't even a concept at that point.

I'm sure that many of the basic trunking concepts still apply, but if you're reading through that old PDF trying to get a sense of the nuts and bolts of a modern ASTRO 25 system, forget it.
 

chrismol1

P25 TruCking!
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,273
Thanks, this is great stuff! Yup, thats the crusty doc floating around ,saw the 2004 date when I opened it, as crusty as an Astro Saber but full of little things I've wondered, even if it is missing, it's fascinating. I wonder, is there anything newer out there floating around in pdf for the plebs?
 
Last edited:

kv6o

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
53
We used to have a few DFB (Dynamic Frequency Blocking, IIRC) channels in place between sites that had frequency re-use. Cleaned that up a few years ago!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top