Antenna Height

Status
Not open for further replies.

dispatcher812

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
670
Location
Connecticut
I have seen in several posts that an antenna should be cut to length dedending on what range of frequencies a person in listening to. What does the length of the antenna have to do with reception? If I am on a hill over looking my town listening to trains for example, does the length of my antenna itself make that much of a difference? And Vice versa, if I was in a valley? What if I were 15 stories up as opposed to ground level?

I have been contemplating getting an antenna for the roof of my single story house to see if I can extend my reception just enough to here a train HotBox detector in the next town. I am currently using an extendable antenna on the scanner. Would putting an antenna on my roof at the proper length really help?
 

jackj

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
1,548
Location
NW Ohio
This is the wrong place to get deep into antenna theory. You could fill books on the subject, in fact books have been filled on it. Short answer....yes the length of the antenna is important. If the antenna isn't resonate at the frequency you want to receive then it won't be able to transfer as much energy to the receiver. If the antenna isn't the right length it won't be resonate.

Antenna height is also important. An antenna on the ground has a lot of stuff between it and the transmitter that will tend to either absorb or block signals. Getting the antenna up in the air gets it above obstructions and also helps it to be closer to line-of-site to the transmitter.

The ARRL has several publications available to help you understand how antennas work. You might be able to find some of them at your local library.
 

n5ims

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
3,993
I have seen in several posts that an antenna should be cut to length dedending on what range of frequencies a person in listening to. What does the length of the antenna have to do with reception? If I am on a hill over looking my town listening to trains for example, does the length of my antenna itself make that much of a difference? And Vice versa, if I was in a valley? What if I were 15 stories up as opposed to ground level?

I have been contemplating getting an antenna for the roof of my single story house to see if I can extend my reception just enough to here a train HotBox detector in the next town. I am currently using an extendable antenna on the scanner. Would putting an antenna on my roof at the proper length really help?

It appears that you're attempting to use two different terms (length and height) as if they're the same thing. They're not the same. User jackj was correct in what he was saying, but if you think that length and height are the same it won't click in your brain.

An antenna length is important and is relative to the desired frequency and antenna design. The length should be what is necessary to cause that antenna to resonate at (or near) the frequency. What length is correct is based on the antenna's design. There are many factors that the design affects. Some of the important ones are gain (amount of signal the antenna will capture and send down to the radio), how wide the resonate frequency band is (some will work from 25 MHz - 1500 MHz while others are only good for a few MHz at a specific frequency), how directional the antenna is (signals from all areas picked up or just those in a single direction), etc.

For example, for a quarter wave antenna (a very common type) that is generally rather low cost, works well but has minimal gain, and is designed for a small range around a single frequency. The length of one on the VHF-Hi band (say 150 MHz) is about 19" long. That same antenna designed for the 800 MHz band would be about 3" long. That very same antenna cut for the US CB band (27 MHz) would be about 108" long. The antenna would work quite well on the band it was designed for, but may not work too well on the other bands.

Antenna height is the height above ground (or some other common measuring point) you place the antenna. Generally, the higher you place an antenna, the more you'll pick up while the lower you place an antenna, the less you'll pick up (there are exceptions based on the antenna design selected and a few other factors). The counter to the "higher the better" rule is the higher you place the antenna, the longer the feedline will need to be. The longer the feedline is, the more loss it will have (also the higher the frequency the more loss) so feedline choice is often more important than which antenna you select.

Remember that it's the antenna system (everything from your radio up to and including the actual antenna) that matters. A great antenna installed poorly, using lossy coax will probably give worse results than an OK antenna installed properly using good grade coax of the proper type. Also note that it's not always the best of everything that will give you the best results, but selecting the right combination of components is often what gives you the best results.

Too much signal can be as much of an issue as too little. Too much signal can cause your radio to be overloaded so the weak signals you want will be worse. These signals may not always be where you might think. Often with scanners a nearby cell phone tower, TV or other broadcast station (I include the NOAA Weather transmitters, paging transmitters, etc. when I say "broadcast"), or even a strong two-way transmitter can cause serious issues and a "great antenna" on that scanner can make things worse, not better. There are things that you can do to work around these issues once you've identified which one (or ones) are your issue.

To help answer your specific question at the end, an antenna resonant at or near the railroad frequencies (that would include nearly all VHF-Hi band antennas) placed on your roof using some good grade coax (LMR-400 for example) could help bring in the desired signals. Don't worry as much about the exact length of the antenna (for VHF-Hi they good ones can be from 19" or so to as long as 20' or more) but having that antenna mounted securely at a good height above your roof can be helpful. The main issues that should worry you (more accurately should factor heavily into your design) are how high the transmitter (the hotbox detector in your case) is and how high you can get your antenna. Since most hotbox detectors are generally rather low your antenna may need to be rather high or even directional (for more gain and less signals you're not interested in) to do what you want.
 

kf5qgf

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
145
Location
Olive Branch, MS
n5ims, i couldn't have put it better. if you're limited in space to an indoor antenna, i've gotten signals from an indoor ground plane made out of coat hangers from 40 miles, having the antenna hung from my ceiling (be careful of your eye as that hurts walking around in the dark) with rubber bands and thumb tacks. However it was on a frequency that I cut the antenna for and made exactly resonate. i've also used home made dipoles that are great too. I made those out of 3/4 copper, which gives me a wide tuning range. Height is extremely beneficial too. One of the Hams in our club hit a repeater on a hand held radio, using 4 watts, in the 2 meter band, at 138 miles, but he was standing on top of a water tower at about 165 feet.

Now basic key as it pertains to antenna LENGTH, the higher the frequency, the shorter the antenna. If you're using the radio shack hand held extendable telescoping antenna, if you're listening to aviation, have it extended almost fully. If you're listening to the rail road push it down a little less than half way.

kf5qgf
 

dispatcher812

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
670
Location
Connecticut
Great info guys, thaks. I think I am getting it. What is the formula for figuring antenna length? I saw it once recelty but I can't find it.
 

ridgescan

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
4,778
Location
San Francisco, Ca.
Done. So another stupid question, What is the difference between half and quarter wavelength? I tried to search for the answer but all the asnwers I wound were over my head.
there will be better answers to follow mine but IMO for receiving, there isn't any noticable difference between quarter or half wave since they both resonate at the desired frequency. I think there's a little more gain in a half wave, I would just make a half wave length and call it a day:)
 

scannerboy01

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
261
Location
Alberta, Canada
1/2 and 1/4 wavelength is just how you divide the the full wavelength of a frequency.
Ex. 155.820 MHz
Full wavelength: 1.9252984212552944 meters
1/2 wavelength: 0.9626492106276472 meters
1/4 wavelength: 0.4813246053138236 meters
Not many people will ever use these kind of big numbers, so people would just estimate that this frequency would have a wavelength close to 2 meters. That would be why you will hear many hams saying something like 2 meters to describe 144-148 MHz. Since 155 MHz is 7 MHz higher than 148 MHz, we could estimate that 155 MHz is close to 2 meters.
 
Last edited:

jackj

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
1,548
Location
NW Ohio
Again, you are seem to be wanting to open a thread on antenna theory. Spend some time with Google if you don't want to go to your local library. Two major differences between 1/4 wave and 1/2 wave antennas, feed point impedance for end-fed antennas and capture area.
 

dispatcher812

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
670
Location
Connecticut
Again, you are seem to be wanting to open a thread on antenna theory. Spend some time with Google if you don't want to go to your local library. Two major differences between 1/4 wave and 1/2 wave antennas, feed point impedance for end-fed antennas and capture area.

Not in the least. And I did try to google that but as I said, it was over my head and was hoping for a quick and easy answer I could understand. I have a scanner at home that is hosting a feed here. I am trying to find out what I can do do help the scanner (a BC350A) hear a railroad hotbox detector in the next town. I know people who say they can hear it at greater distances than what my scanner is to the detector. I am looking to put an antenna on the roof of my house and had questions.
 

WA1ATA

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
416
Location
Fairhaven MA / San Jose CA / Kihei HI
. I am trying to find out what I can do do help the scanner (a BC350A) hear a railroad hotbox detector in the next town. I know people who say they can hear it at greater distances than what my scanner is to the detector. I am looking to put an antenna on the roof of my house and had questions.

The simplest solution is a 1/4 wavelength antenna. See BUILD A GROUND PLANE ANTENNA FOR 2 METERS AND MORE - SIMPLE AND EASY! for a simple, easy to construct version. Just scale the size of elements by the factor of 146/160 to account for the change of center from from 146MHZ to 160MHz (or whatever freq the hotbox detector is on).

If you aren't into homebrew, the relatively inexpensive Radioshack antenna 20-176 Outdoor VHF-Hi/UHF Scanner Antenna : Scanner Antennas | RadioShack.com should work. About $30.

If neither of the two solutions above work, then you can take advantage of the fact that the hotbox is in a fixed location and use a high gain beam antenna (such as the popular yagi) to improve your reception.

For any and all of the above cases, you need to run some good quality coax, such as RG6, up to your roof. That's the expensive/more difficult/more expensive part of the project. Once you have the coax up there, then you can see how much of an antenna you need.

My prediction is that you will get good reception by doing nothing more than hooking an 18" wire to the center conductor at the end of your coax (a very, very crude 1/4 wavelength antenna without groundplane).
 
Last edited:

jackj

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
1,548
Location
NW Ohio
Hot Box

Not in the least. And I did try to google that but as I said, it was over my head and was hoping for a quick and easy answer I could understand. I have a scanner at home that is hosting a feed here. I am trying to find out what I can do do help the scanner (a BC350A) hear a railroad hotbox detector in the next town. I know people who say they can hear it at greater distances than what my scanner is to the detector. I am looking to put an antenna on the roof of my house and had questions.

A hot box detector is intended to communicate it's findings to the lead engine only, usually a mile or less. The transmitter is low power and the antenna is mounted on the equipment shack roof. If you can hear it 10-12 miles away then you are doing good. Raising your receive antenna won't do much good but boosting your receive antenna gain will help. Work on reducing your antenna system's losses as much as possible and consider a pre-amp. Where you mount the pre-amp won't make much, if any, difference to your system's performance.

There isn't a short, quick way to learn a complicated subject like antenna theory. You have to learn it by studying it, math and all. You can get answers here and other places but if those answers don't apply to your situation, then you won't be able to modify them so that they will apply or understand why they don't apply. Obtaining knowledge is never a waste of time.
 

LtDoc

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
2,145
Location
Oklahoma
In general...
A higher antenna will 'hear' more than a lower antenna. That deals with VHF/UHF being more line-of-sight than lower frequencies. (You can see further on top of a step ladder than at ground level, your antenna does too.)
A typical 1/4 wave antenna is short and has no gain (the standard for that sort of comparison, gain, is a 1/2 wave antenna), actually has a negative gain. A 1/2 wave antenna has a gain of '1', meaning it's the same as the standard antenna which comparisons are made with. A typical 5/8 wave antenna has gain, something on the order of 1.2 or so. Meaning it hears 1.2 times as much as the standard antenna. 'Gain' is sort of 'tricky', you have to know what it's being compared to to get that gain figure. There are more than one way of arriving at gain figures, and if the method used isn't the 'standard' one, then those gain figures are meaningless. Of course, bigger numbers makes people think they are really getting something more than usual, and that's a very common advertising game. In a very general way, the larger the antenna the more you will hear. That is NOT always the case though, it's just a 'generalized' thingy.
So how do you tell if you've got a good antenna or not (especially before you get it!)? That comes from experience, unfortunately, or knowledge. Getting either of those things isn't always 'painless'. Mistakes happen. Just remember them so you don't have to do it again...
- 'Doc
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top