Antenna requires direct grounding

WX9EMT

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Sorry if this has been asked already and I am just blind. I am wondering if I bought the wrong antenna for my setup. I am installing a dual band antenna on my roof rack. The rack is steel and bolted to the roof of my truck. Holes were drilled and the brackets bolted that way. Using a steel antenna bracket bolted to the rack itself. Stripped the paint from the mating surfaces of the bracket and mounting location. Using a nmo mount and double shielded coax to my FTM-400XDR. I bought a NR72BNMO and there is a sticker that states that direct grounding is required. And that it should be mounted to the side of the vehicle not the center of the roof. Will this work for my setup or did I purchase the wrong antenna?
 

WB5UOM

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I looked and found :
Remarks: Not recommended for use with magnet mount. Grounding required. Side mount use only.

A little funny to me ( but I am a Larsen guy)...put it on and check fwd/refl power see if it plays..if not go get you a larsen....but I bet it will play
 

littona

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Agree with the above. But if you're having issues, you might just need to run a dedicated ground strap between the rack and the truck. They're just saying that a mag mount isn't an effective ground and you need a standard NMO mount.
 

prcguy

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Direct grounding probably means two things here, they want the mount grounded to the vehicle body (skin) and they want the mount in the skin and not elevated like on a roof rack. Most mobile antennas will have problems when the feedpoint is elevated above the groundplane and a few will work better with less groundplane under them like the COMPACtenna series where the SWR on VHF is higher in the center of the roof but fine at the edge of the roof.

When you shorten a 1/4 wave antenna considerably the feedpoint impedance goes down and over a good ground plane the antenna can be well under 50 ohms. If you starve it for ground plane like at the edge of a roof that can raise the impedance some, so maybe that's a quirk with this particular antenna.
 

WX9EMT

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So this wouldn't work? I had it on my fender mount, which the picture is to replace, and my swr was 1.05 on 2m. Haven't tested it on the rack as I have to make the coax connection. Still waiting for the parts...

If this doesn't work, any suggestions on antennas for the following?
  1. Dual band 2m/7cm
  2. LMR VHF.
  3. Both are being mounted on the rack and looking for them to be under 16 inches.
 

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prcguy

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So this wouldn't work? I had it on my fender mount, which the picture is to replace, and my swr was 1.05 on 2m. Haven't tested it on the rack as I have to make the coax connection. Still waiting for the parts...

If this doesn't work, any suggestions on antennas for the following?
  1. Dual band 2m/7cm
  2. LMR VHF.
  3. Both are being mounted on the rack and looking for them to be under 16 inches.
That can sort of work ok on UHF but in my experience there is not enough ground plane for VHF, most antennas will complain. The feedpoint is nearly hanging in mid air and the antenna wants to be down flat on a large sheet of metal. Even if it matched up ok the radiation pattern would suffer putting most of the energy to the left of the picture in line with the roof rack.
 

WX9EMT

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That can sort of work ok on UHF but in my experience there is not enough ground plane for VHF, most antennas will complain. The feedpoint is nearly hanging in mid air and the antenna wants to be down flat on a large sheet of metal. Even if it matched up ok the radiation pattern would suffer putting most of the energy to the left of the picture in line with the roof rack.
Any recommendations for location? I can't mount it on the roof though. I could move the antenna to one of the cross members on the rack. It's a Ram crewcab. I'm open to suggestions on a good mount spot for two antennas. I have a rollbar on the back and a ranch-hand front bumper.
 

prcguy

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Any recommendations for location? I can't mount it on the roof though. I could move the antenna to one of the cross members on the rack. It's a Ram crewcab. I'm open to suggestions on a good mount spot for two antennas. I have a rollbar on the back and a ranch-hand front bumper.
I have friends that have used that antenna on a mag mount and it works ok for them. I think it depends on the mag mount and how it couples to the roof. You can get a mag mount then replace the thin plastic bottom covering with self adhesive copper sheet and it will work nearly the same as a permanent roof mount on VHF/UHF.
 

WX9EMT

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I have no issue get another antenna. I'll just find a use for this one or send it back.
 

WX9EMT

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If I only had a roof rack for attachment I would choose a no ground plane model. However, lack of ground plane can reduce performance.
I have the fenders too. Just can't remove the roofrack easily. Just want the right antenna(s) and location(s) for my radios and not ruin them. Especially as you can't get the 400xdr anymore.


I looked and found :
Remarks: Not recommended for use with magnet mount. Grounding required. Side mount use only.

A little funny to me ( but I am a Larsen guy)...put it on and check fwd/refl power see if it plays..if not go get you a larsen....but I bet it will play
So SWR was 1.05 on 2m. Forward power was 49.8 and reverse(?) power was 4.9. Is that good/bad?
 

WX9EMT

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That doesn't make sense. How are you measuring that?
4.9 is 10% 49. If you have 10% reflected power then the SWR is close to 2:1.
I bet I wrote it down wrong. I'll do it again tomorrow and take a pic.
 

merlin

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This is strange, I can only think non center mount or no mag mount is a kludge to cover impedance problems. Sounds like poor antenna design.
For best omnidirectional pattern, the center of the vehicle profile is the best, proven over decades and modeling.
And again, the magnet mount issue. I once thought, Hm, poor/no ground, that cant work well.
That is true talking about DC current flow, but this is RF, high frequency AC. The magnet base is grounded to the antenna, so you have like a capacitor, coupling to ground. You get above 20 MHz, it doesn't take but a number of picofarads to be like a short circuit.
Tuned circuit base loaded antennas will see a near ground at the magnet. Some well designed antennas evevn incorporate a capacitor to ground side of the coil.
A ground plane less than reasonant 1/4 wave makes the impedance inductive, the fix for this is a slightly longer driven elemet (antenna).
A good example is a CHP 40 MHZ antenna on a motocycle, practically no ground plane. The whip is longer than say a cruiser with the same setup.
Either mounting with mag mount, there would be so little difference, you need special equipment to see the difference.
I tested a Wilson 1000M on a mag mount, centered on the trunk lid of my old Cadillac, tuned with near no detectable reflected power 27.200 MHz. somewhat direcetional to the front of the car.
Moved the antenna to center of the roof, (This was vinyl covered BTW) and the difference was best SWR a 27.000 MHz. Just about omnidirectional. So.....
 

WX9EMT

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That doesn't make sense. How are you measuring that?
4.9 is 10% 49. If you have 10% reflected power then the SWR is close to 2:1.
The attached photo is what I get when it is mounted on the roof rack. I get 1.84 SWR on the fender. Same antenna and same station.
 

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WB5UOM

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Ok well there ya go, drive it and use the radio, it likley works...
 

KA0XR

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I have friends that have used that antenna on a mag mount and it works ok for them. I think it depends on the mag mount and how it couples to the roof. You can get a mag mount then replace the thin plastic bottom covering with self adhesive copper sheet and it will work nearly the same as a permanent roof mount on VHF/UHF.
Do you really need to peel/tear off the bottom of the mag mount (even if it's just a thin aluminum sheet like on Larsen mag mounts) for the adhesive copper sheet to produce a better vehicle ground plane? Or can you just stick a circle of copper sheeting to the existing thin bottom cover and get the same benefit mimicking a permanent mount?
 
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