any SINGARS experts?

[topcop1833]

I recently had the National Guard out with my agency trying to patch our radios together through an interoperability device (ACU-1000). We were successful and managed to prove, if we needed, we could patch a military unit using SINGARS onto the public safety radio system we use. A little light bulb went off, and we wondered if we could just go direct with each other, seeing as though I have VHF low band capability. We entered a freq into the SINGARS and I could hear them, but they could not hear me. I verified there were no PL tones being sent out by my radio, the SINGARS was transmitting "in the clear" (no crypto, no freq-hopping). Both of our radios should have been sending and receiving the same freq, with no extras. When I transmitted, you could see that the SINGARS was receiving the signal, it just was not letting it though to the speaker. The comms guy was baffled, and said it should work. We tried different freqs, configs, and even other radios (SINGARS and civilian) for an hour before we finally gave up frustrated. So I guess my question is, does anyone know if there is some sort of channel guard used when SINGARS transmits in the clear? If it matters, we were using 39.5mhz, which to them was 39500.

I know this seems to be mostly a mil air forum, but I though I would through it out there. I've just got to figure this one out.

 

[BMT]

Singars

TC you have ask a question that's been bugging others that don't post on RR.

Think of the billion of dollard spent since 9/11 on interop.

BMT

 

[Comint]

. . If it matters, we were using 39.5mhz, which to them was 39500.

I don't know specifically about SINGARS, but most of the military field gear operating in that frequency range uses a 150 Hz tone squelch.

--
Comint

 

[prcguy]

SINCGARS radios have 150hz tone sq or open sq, no noise sq. When talking to a SINCGARS radio you have to send 150hz tone (at a fairly high level) or listen on the SINCGARS in sq off position. Some of the SINCGARS vehicle mounts with audio amps and some intercom units have a built in noise sq function and you can run the radio in open sq and let the mount or intercom sq the system.
prcguy

 

[nd5y]

SINCGARS also has 15 kHz deviation (about 36 kHz bandwidth) so there will be audio problems too.

 

[prcguy]

The older series FM equipment like PRC-77s abd RT-524s had around 15KHz dev but the SINCGARS and other late model FM sets are around 6 to 8KHz max on voice deviation.
prcguy

SINCGARS also has 15 kHz deviation (about 36 kHz bandwidth) so there will be audio problems too.

 

[N1BHH]

It's actually SINCGARS: http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/sincgars.htm
The majority of military radios have 150 hertz noise or tone squelch.

 

[scansomd]

Greetings.

From your post below, it sounds like you are using a VHF Low band frequency, without using the SINCGARS capability. SINCGARS is a frequency hopping protocol.

Having said that, yes, military VHF radios (can) use 150 Hz as a squelch tone. I am not familiar with your radio (ACU-1000) but you can look for a setting (software or knobogoly) that says something like 'new squelch off'. Also, I wasn't sure if you have already done so from reading your post, but check the civilian radio to ensure it does not have a PL tone enabled.

I recently had the National Guard out with my agency trying to patch our radios together through an interoperability device (ACU-1000). We were successful and managed to prove, if we needed, we could patch a military unit using SINGARS onto the public safety radio system we use. A little light bulb went off, and we wondered if we could just go direct with each other, seeing as though I have VHF low band capability. We entered a freq into the SINGARS and I could hear them, but they could not hear me. I verified there were no PL tones being sent out by my radio, the SINGARS was transmitting "in the clear" (no crypto, no freq-hopping). Both of our radios should have been sending and receiving the same freq, with no extras. When I transmitted, you could see that the SINGARS was receiving the signal, it just was not letting it though to the speaker. The comms guy was baffled, and said it should work. We tried different freqs, configs, and even other radios (SINGARS and civilian) for an hour before we finally gave up frustrated. So I guess my question is, does anyone know if there is some sort of channel guard used when SINGARS transmits in the clear? If it matters, we were using 39.5mhz, which to them was 39500.

I know this seems to be mostly a mil air forum, but I though I would through it out there. I've just got to figure this one out.

 

[prcguy]

The National Guard would rarely have a SINCGARS radio that was keyed for frequency hopping, they just use them in the single channel mode. Otherwise you need to send the SINCGARS radio a signal with 150Hz tone with at least 2KHz tone deviation or run it open squelch on receive.
prcguy

Greetings.

From your post below, it sounds like you are using a VHF Low band frequency, without using the SINCGARS capability. SINCGARS is a frequency hopping protocol.

Having said that, yes, military VHF radios (can) use 150 Hz as a squelch tone. I am not familiar with your radio (ACU-1000) but you can look for a setting (software or knobogoly) that says something like 'new squelch off'. Also, I wasn't sure if you have already done so from reading your post, but check the civilian radio to ensure it does not have a PL tone enabled.

 

[topcop1833]

Thank you all for your replies. I always thought it was SINGARS (that’s what they taught me while I was in the Marines, if not, I stand corrected). The civilian radio used was a M/A Comm Orion. The ACU-1000 is a device made by Raytheon JPS. They make several units that are for patching desperate radios/radio systems together in a tactical setting.

Here is their website http://www.jps.com/page/view/88

Thanks for the idea of running the SINCGARS in squelch off. The ACU has three ways of recognizing audio, COR, VOX, and VMR. If I patch the SINCGARS with the squelch off, and set that port on the ACU to VMR, then I should be able to create a patch.

Thanks again for the responses, if anyone is ever in the Richmond Virginia area, send me a PM and I'll show you the setup.

 

[prcguy]

VMR may work but you will probably get long noisy squelch tails from the SINCGARS end. If you don't need to inter operate with with commercial VHF low band on the SINCGARS radio, just run in squelch mode on the radio and VOX on the JPS unit. The SINCGARS radio also has a retrans mode and it will give you a COR out from the mic jack if you want to run the JPS in COR mode.
prcguy

Thank you all for your replies. I always thought it was SINGARS (that’s what they taught me while I was in the Marines, if not, I stand corrected). The civilian radio used was a M/A Comm Orion. The ACU-1000 is a device made by Raytheon JPS. They make several units that are for patching desperate radios/radio systems together in a tactical setting.

Here is their website http://www.jps.com/page/view/88

Thanks for the idea of running the SINCGARS in squelch off. The ACU has three ways of recognizing audio, COR, VOX, and VMR. If I patch the SINCGARS with the squelch off, and set that port on the ACU to VMR, then I should be able to create a patch.

Thanks again for the responses, if anyone is ever in the Richmond Virginia area, send me a PM and I'll show you the setup.