ARTCC and Civilian/Military comms

[eorange]

Is it possible to listen to only the military comms in and out of an ARTCC?

I assume only the military use the UHF ARTCC freqs, so that should be easy, if true.

But what the VHF freqs? It seems that both civilian and military planes use the VHF freqs. Is there a usage convention among the VHF freqs (military use these VHF freqs, civilian use those VHF freqs), or does it not work like that?

I know the various freqs are labeled "low, high, discrete, ultra high", etc, but I don't know what that all means, or if it even has any bearing on the type of aircraft which uses those freqs.

Any insight appreciated!


Erik
KA3FYU

 

[Dank]

From my understanding MilAir primarily use the UHF freqs to talk to the centers. I am a relative newbie to MilAir, but I heard this from an experienced person. The context this statement was made similiar to this, "I only scan the UHF air freqs so I done pick up all the civilian traffic." This person is really big into MilAir.
check out the MilAir info on the Wiki page.

Good Luck

 

[illini52]

From my understanding MilAir primarily use the UHF freqs to talk to the centers. "I only scan the UHF air freqs so I done pick up all the civilian traffic." This person is really big into MilAir.

If you ONLY want to hear mil stuff, then UHF is the way to go. However there is also a lot of routine ATC comms with military aircraft on the VHF side. It is just a pain in the rear to scan a whole bank of civ freqs and listen to all the commercial stuff when all you want to hear is military.

Some military jets still only have UHF capability, but most have VHF.

 

[b7spectra]

Mil Comms do take place on VHF as well. Quite a few use them so civil aviation will know where they are at. On my yahoogroups scanner list (ScanAtlanta@yahoogroups.com) we have a poster there that list all the A/C out of Dobbins ARB and the frequencies they use. Very useful info there!

 

[eorange]

However there is also a lot of routine ATC comms with military aircraft on the VHF side. It is just a pain in the rear to scan a whole bank of civ freqs and listen to all the commercial stuff when all you want to hear is military.

That's my point exactly. To which, I was wondering if some VHF freqs are dedicated to military aircraft only, or is it a mix?

 

[CORN]

The only VHF "dedicated" to military a/c would be the 137-150MHz range, all in am mode. However, that would be for air to air between a/c and some refueling work. The new tactical a/c now have VHF capability so they may be on VHF or UHF ATC. Some use UHF for ATC and air to air. If you want to be serious about milair and want to catch a lot of comms then i suggest no fewer than 3 scanners dedicated for milair. When i'm scanning thru (ATC) band i don't delay the VHF freqs but i do delay the UHF freqs. Should something come up on VHF i just pause it. Most of your VHF (ATC) milcoms will be cargo, AWACS, tanker, some trainers. Most fighters and high end trainers use UHF for ATC although you can hear an occasional fighter on VHF. For example i've heard USMC/USN F-18's use UHF for ATC and Air to Air although they have VHF capability, The F-14's (which one's are left, now you'll hear comms as they go to the desert since it's officially retired) are old school and are UHF only. I've heard most F-15's use UHF for everything, air to air and ATC, I don't think are VHF capable. F-16's use UHF and VHF for either air to air or ATC. A poplular range for F-16's is VHF, 137MHz-150MHz, for their air to air. The new F-22 uses both bands. Anything tactical or air refuelings will be found on UHF. Thats about all i have. Happy listening.

 

[ksmoscanner]

There are always exceptions but generally heres what I hear in the midwest:

Tankers/Transports= VHF for ATC (mixed in with all the civies)
Fighters/Bombers/Trainers= UHF for ATC
AWACS/JSTARS= VHF for Front End Pilots / UHF for Backend Controllers

To hear everything you will need to monitor both. Im my opinion the exciting flights take
place on UHF. Most planes that use VHF for ATC still use UHF for non ATC communications.

Gregg in KC

 

[BMT]

https://164.214.2.62/dafif/dafif_06...n/usifr_sup.pdf

Download this document. A new one is published every 56 days.

BMT

 

[AndrewC75]

bad link...

 

[ka3jjz]

This might work better; it uses the same relative address, but points to a specific web page rather than a document....now, which document to download is the question...

NGA Aeronautical page

73s Mike

 

[BMT]

I would download the IFR and VFR supplement.If you are a serious MILAIR monitor I would look at everything available. Tons of interesting info.

Jack

 

[eorange]

Based on the filename from the bad link...scroll down about 3/4 of the way to "Enroute Supplements", then choose the "U.S. IFR Supp" document.

Even better, click the "Enroutes Supplement Zipped" link.

WARNING! This is a 801 page PDF. Just search for your airport and you'll see relevant freqs (UHF and VHF). Also search for your ARTCC name and you'll find the same.

Not sure this document answers my VHF question totally (the other responses helped, thanks!), but it's definitely a good reference for VHF/UHF freqs.

Erik
KA3FYU

 

[DaveNF2G]

If you are near the ground site for a Center, you will probably hear all of their transmissions simulcast on VHF and UHF, so even if you monitor UHF exclusively, you will hear traffic directed to civilian aircraft. During busy times of day, that can be enough to tie up your scanner.

 

[DanHenry]

VHF or UHF for ATC?

Erik,

You've gotten some good info from the guys here. I'm an AF navigator, ham, and love radios so here's a couple more comments.

-For aircraft equipped with both UHF and VHF radios it's pretty much up to the crew to decide which center frequencies to use. Many military aircraft choose VHF for ATC so that they can hear the civilian traffic that they're trying to avoid. Some crews always dial in both VHF and UHF frequencies. They'll only transmit on one but that way they can hear ALL traffic and have a backup radio with ATC.

-Some bases require that UHF equipped aircraft use the UHF frequency with tower when in the traffic pattern doing multiple approaches. That way everybody is on the same freq and all military aircraft will hear both sides of the radio calls.

-If a military aircraft is short on radios and using UHF for a tanker or something tactical he'll probably be using VHF for ATC.

-It's common for many crews to use UHF for ground and tower, then switch to VHF for departure. Then it's easy to switch between VHF and UHF when you're doing multiple approaches. The pilot talking to the crew will say "Crew, UHF is primary" or "Crew, VHF is primary" as they switch.

All my experience is with special ops C-130s that have 2 UHF, 2 VHF, 2 HF, SATCOM, and sometimes an extra radio or two. The new ARC-222 VHF radios are really fun because they also work on the marine VHF bands. You'd be amazed what you can hear when your antenna is 10,000' in the air!

-Dan

 

[eorange]

Dan, that is awesome information! I (and others here too) greatly appreciate these tips from someone who is in the know. I can just imagine what you hear from 10,000', lol.

I have a couple ARTCC VHF freqs in my mil air bank that I monitor separately, and that's pretty much the way to go. I also have 2 banks dedicated to all Cleveland Center freqs, but there's so much civilian traffic I'll either never hear a mil com, or if I do I probably won't even notice it!

I looked up those Raytheon radios - man, those are built like tanks! Nice feature set, too.

Again, very cool info - thanks.

Erik
KA3FYU

 

[b7spectra]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/sincgars.pdf

For all interested, it's a great wealth of information.

 

[eorange]

Interesting document from 1996...but there's really nothing specific to VHF/UHF mil air comms.

Erik
KA3FYU

 

[Declared_Hostile]

I've noticed that certain military aircraft that transit my area, while certainly UHF capable, tend to use VHF civilian ATC freqs. Noticed this started about the same time they started using alias callsigns instead of their usual known static callsigns.

 

[kny2xb]

I downloaded both the IFR and VFR supplements. I found listings for both controlled and uncontrolled airports in my area (Tampa Bay, FL), plus the ARTCC frequencies for both Jacksonville and Miami. I also viewed the FAA charts for radar, approaches, and departures for each airport, which had freqs (both VHF and UHF) which were not on the supplements. Between the different sources, I've got Win97 programmed, my PRO-97 loaded and alpha-tagged.

Happy listening!
73

Greg
Palm Harbor, FL
PRO-43
PRO-91
PRO-97
PRO-2004
PRO-2050

 

[DPD1]

I have a couple ARTCC VHF freqs in my mil air bank that I monitor separately, and that's pretty much the way to go. I also have 2 banks dedicated to all Cleveland Center freqs, but there's so much civilian traffic I'll either never hear a mil com, or if I do I probably won't even notice it!

I looked up those Raytheon radios - man, those are built like tanks! Nice feature set, too.

Yeah, I think that's why a lot of the VHF mil stuff doesn't get noticed or reported. Most people can't handle the VHF traffic. With just 2 or 3 ZLA VHF freqs on, I start going insane. It's like listening to a broken record. And if you do somehow manage to listen, you get so immune to it, that AF 1 could check in, and you probably wouldn't even notice.

What's funny, is that sometimes the less used sectors have no idea what the UHF freqs are for the next sector over. So some aircraft that have both bands, but prefer UHF, often get sent to the wrong freqs. Sometimes you'll hear guys go through that on a few switches, then they finally give up and take the VHF they give them. And on rare occasion, guys that almost always use UHF, will just take the VHF for whatever reason... I've heard 18s do that a few times, which was weird.

Personally, I would like to have my own ARC-210. But even if they sold them to the public, I'd probably have to sell my first born to afford it.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Custom Scanner, MURS, GMRS, & Ham Antennas -