Bell County p25 system: unknown talkgroups and encryption

[aimedtoannoy]

Would be nice to be able to get a thread going for this site.
The following are captured audio for unknown talkgroups: all link to soundcloud

65181: Killeen ems or fire dispatch channel
65185: temple ems or fire medical dispatch
65182: I think Killeen fire/ems dispatch, one call was for mutual aid dispatch to Harker Heights and one was a medical call in Killeen
65112: fire mutual aid: "Salado command center" was mentioned: might be partially encrypted
65144: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65149: Belton medic 2 was dispatched on this TG for a medical call
65172: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65173: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65174: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65175: fire or ems: Killeen rescue 2 was dispatched to a medical call
65176: pager tone out but not sure if the calls file was corrupted or if it was an encrypted transmission
65177:all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65178: DPS Dispatch: Bell County Center asking DPS if they want some reckless driving calls sent to them, also had some aircraft audio
as im writing this this TG became active again and seems to be used for DPS; they are currently patrolling and doing something with helo.
65179: fire/ems Killeen medic 5 dispatched for a medical call
65184: Fire/ems Temple medic 22 and engine 4 dispatched to a medical call

 

[hiegtx]

Would be nice to be able to get a thread going for this site.
The following are captured audio for unknown talkgroups: all link to soundcloud

65181: Killeen ems or fire dispatch channel
65185: temple ems or fire medical dispatch
65182: I think Killeen fire/ems dispatch, one call was for mutual aid dispatch to Harker Heights and one was a medical call in Killeen
65112: fire mutual aid: "Salado command center" was mentioned: might be partially encrypted
65144: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65149: Belton medic 2 was dispatched on this TG for a medical call
65172: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65173: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65174: all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65175: fire or ems: Killeen rescue 2 was dispatched to a medical call
65176: pager tone out but not sure if the calls file was corrupted or if it was an encrypted transmission
65177:all I caught was a pager tone out for fire or ems
65178: DPS Dispatch: Bell County Center asking DPS if they want some reckless driving calls sent to them, also had some aircraft audio
as im writing this this TG became active again and seems to be used for DPS; they are currently patrolling and doing something with helo.
65179: fire/ems Killeen medic 5 dispatched for a medical call
65184: Fire/ems Temple medic 22 and engine 4 dispatched to a medical call

Usually, when you see a TGID, five digits & starting with a 65 (65xxx), that is not a standard talkgroup. It's a patch between another frequency & the system, pr between two talkgroups. I see these types on Kaufman County's P25 system, usually when DPS, or another department using conventional frequencies, is patched into the trunked system. These are often short lived, disappearing when the patch is removed at the dispatch console level. The next time a similar patch is set up, it is more likely to be a different number. Still starting with the 65, but the remaining three digits will probably be different.

Look at this Wiki page, and skip down to the header for the Wichita Falls P25 System:

Hotter N Hell Hundred - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

 

[aimedtoannoy]

Usually, when you see a TGID, five digits & starting with a 65 (65xxx), that is not a standard talkgroup. It's a patch between another frequency & the system, pr between two talkgroups. I see these types on Kaufman County's P25 system, usually when DPS, or another department using conventional frequencies, is patched into the trunked system. These are often short lived, disappearing when the patch is removed at the dispatch console level. The next time a similar patch is set up, it is more likely to be a different number. Still starting with the 65, but the remaining three digits will probably be different.

Look at this Wiki page, and skip down to the header for the Wichita Falls P25 System:

Hotter N Hell Hundred - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

View attachment 123105

ok, thankyou. Its been about 5+ years since I got back into the hobby. once I started hearing DPS I started thinking these were going to be patches. lately those 65xx TGs have been the only ones ive been able to capture an actual fire or ems dispatch other than the pager tones

 

[aimedtoannoy]

These are patches from the Edacs system. idk why I didnt check that before posting.

 

[BaLa]

65s are used for EMS/FD Dispatches

Encryption is not used much on this system... Yet..
Only a matter of time though.

 

[aimedtoannoy]

65s are used for EMS/FD Dispatches

Encryption is not used much on this system... Yet..
Only a matter of time though.

ive seen some encryption come up using sdrtrunk, killeen the most and sheriff but not very often.

are the 65xxx stay the same? if they do, wouldnt hurt for me to cross reference with the edacs system and submit them. based on what ive seen today, the 65s have stayed the same.

 

[rattlerbb01]

These are patches from the Edacs system. idk why I didnt check that before posting.

It’s all good. The way scanners handle the patch talkgroups can be a PITA. That’s one of the reasons I always load all the known talkgroups for a system when I create a favorites list and lock out the stuff I don’t want so that I can keep my scanner in ID Search mode and not miss anything.

 

[rattlerbb01]

ive seen some encryption come up using sdrtrunk, killeen the most and sheriff but not very often.

are the 65xxx stay the same? if they do, wouldnt hurt for me to cross reference with the edacs system and submit them. based on what ive seen today, the 65s have stayed the same.

Once a dispatcher ends the patch it will lose its 65XXX talkgroup. Next time they create a patch it will take a new group. We typically won’t add those to the database due to their dynamic nature.

 

[aimedtoannoy]

Once a dispatcher ends the patch it will lose its 65XXX talkgroup. Next time they create a patch it will take a new group. We typically won’t add those to the database due to their dynamic nature.

That sucks, bc 65178 is a patch for 428 on the edacs stystem currently, DB shows TG50428 All Service 1 (All Agencies Mutual Aid (which is supposed to mimic the edac system) but 50428 TG is dead and instead is being aired on 65178.
I noticed the edacs channel is the same as the last 3 of the TG on the P25 System.

 

[rattlerbb01]

That sucks, bc 65178 is a patch for 428 on the edacs stystem currently, DB shows TG50428 All Service 1 (All Agencies Mutual Aid (which is supposed to mimic the edac system) but 50428 TG is dead and instead is being aired on 65178.
I noticed the edacs channel is the same as the last 3 of the TG on the P25 System.

That’s how they set that system up where 50xxx is the same as xxx from EDACS. Makes it easy identifying a new talkgroup on P25 once there is enough traffic to verify. But yeah, all it takes is a console swapping duties and the patch is released and a new one born.

 

[KI5IRE]

Generally with Harris systems dynamic patching occurs in the range 65100 to 65199 or so. I've seen other systems use other ranges, but 65xxx is the most common.

I can tell that the Bell Co. system is most likely Harris due to the way the system ID looks;
The Bell county system looks like this, and you'll see similar looking ones on most other Harris systems

Bell County P25
Sysid: 00A WACN: 924D5

Whereas a Motorola system like the HOTRRS in Waco looks like this and you'll see most other Motorola systems look similar:

Waco HOTRRS
Sysid: 572 WACN: BEE00

or something like this on the NTIRN system in Tarrant County

NTIRN
Sysid: 44A WACN: BEE00

 

[aimedtoannoy]

That’s how they set that system up where 50xxx is the same as xxx from EDACS. Makes it easy identifying a new talkgroup on P25 once there is enough traffic to verify. But yeah, all it takes is a console swapping duties and the patch is released and a new one born.

yeah the the patches have already changed, it sucks because it looks like they are sending out the initial dispatch call over the patch and then units are acknowledging on their respective 50xxx

 

[aimedtoannoy]

Generally with Harris systems dynamic patching occurs in the range 65100 to 65199 or so. I've seen other systems use other ranges, but 65xxx is the most common.

I can tell that the Bell Co. system is most likely Harris due to the way the system ID looks;
The Bell county system looks like this, and you'll see similar looking ones on most other Harris systems

Bell County P25
Sysid: 00A WACN: 924D5

Whereas a Motorola system like the HOTRRS in Waco looks like this and you'll see most other Motorola systems look similar:

Waco HOTRRS
Sysid: 572 WACN: BEE00

or something like this on the NTIRN system in Tarrant County

NTIRN
Sysid: 44A WACN: BEE00

ok, I didnt notice that, thanks for pointing that out, it makes more sense now!

 

[KI5IRE]

yeah the the patches have already changed, it sucks because it looks like they are sending out the initial dispatch call over the patch and then units are acknowledging on their respective 50xxx

They usually create the patch talkgroups when they select multiple talkgroups to patch and dispatch a call. They do that on the Harris system here in OKC when they dispatch a priority call like an armed robbery and they patch all of the PD talkgroups together. Usually my radios still pick up the dispatch on one of the patched talkgroups that’s not the dynamic 65xxx.

 

[aimedtoannoy]

They usually create the patch talkgroups when they select multiple talkgroups to patch and dispatch a call. They do that on the Harris system here in OKC when they dispatch a priority call like an armed robbery and they patch all of the PD talkgroups together. Usually my radios still pick up the dispatch on one of the patched talkgroups that’s not the dynamic 65xxx.

Rn they are just patching individual tg from the edacs system to the new system 65xxx and then the department responds on the 50xxx so you usually miss the dispatch and tones if you don’t have ID search on. I’ll just have to re configure my scanner to pick them up. I was trying to set up playlists on the calls platform but all the tones and initial dispatches are currently dynamic on the 65s I may just get some more dongles and capture the edacs system on the calls platform also.

 

[KI5IRE]

Rn they are just patching individual tg from the edacs system to the new system 65xxx and then the department responds on the 50xxx so you usually miss the dispatch and tones if you don’t have ID search on. I’ll just have to re configure my scanner to pick them up. I was trying to set up playlists on the calls platform but all the tones and initial dispatches are currently dynamic on the 65s I may just get some more dongles and capture the edacs system on the calls platform also.

For the 65xxx talkgroups, rather than using ID search all the time, you could just create talkgroups for the range 65100-6500 and then name them setting like ‘Temporary Patch 65xxx’. I did this quickest in Excel using the auto series fill and copied the TG name column and the TGID column to Sentinel.

 

[aimedtoannoy]

Es

For the 65xxx talkgroups, rather than using ID search all the time, you could just create talkgroups for the range 65100-6500 and then name them setting like ‘Temporary Patch 65xxx’. I did this quickest in Excel using the auto series fill and copied the TG name column and the TGID column to Sentinel.

ive captured I think 150 of them. I just created a wildcard for just the 65xxx so they all come in as “Patch from EDACS” on sdrtrunk. Haven’t had time to do it with my scanners just yet. Then anything below 65 is set to “unknown talkgroup”

 

[KI5IRE]

Es

ive captured I think 150 of them. I just created a wildcard for just the 65xxx so they all come in as “Patch from EDACS” on sdrtrunk. Haven’t had time to do it with my scanners just yet. Then anything below 65 is set to “unknown talkgroup”

You can also setup a range on SDdTrunk as well.

 

[TexasHighway357]

For the 65xxx talkgroups, rather than using ID search all the time, you could just create talkgroups for the range 65100-6500 and then name them setting like ‘Temporary Patch 65xxx’. I did this quickest in Excel using the auto series fill and copied the TG name column and the TGID column to Sentinel.

I do this with the Bell Co Fire Paging on the temporary simulselect "Patches" so I can choose to add these page outs in scan lists or deactivate them.

I'm not sure what the correct format is, but I've seen Bell County Simulselect or "patches" run from:
AFS 14-081 thru 15-151
or TGID 51857 thru 52041 but I'm not sure what the more correct way would be or show.

I've seen patches (dynamic TG) used daily for the fire page tone-out on the initial tone-out and then the units go back to their respective TGID, such 50545 for Killeen Fire/EMS.

But patches can also be used to link any other Talkgroup for any amount of time, such as linking an LE talkgroup like All Service 1 to a Fire talkgroup like Mutual 1, etc. These are created by the dispatcher linking talkgroups in the system and will rebroadcast on the new dynamic TGID that can easily be circulated once the patch is closed. That's just the dynamic nature of patching and why there isn't a specific TGID# assigned to a particular Fire or EMS tone out.

Another way I like to set up my scanner for Fire/EMS listening is to program the actual Department Mains and the individual station TGID. The way Bell County Fire/EMS paging works varies by department, but generally there is a station tone (the individual firehouse being called out), followed by any other fire/ems stations (such as 2nd fire station to respond or a separate EMS agency), then the voice simulcast which is the dynamic TGID or "patch" that is temporarily put in place and the final tone and voice dispatch will follow.

If you need help finding out who is who, or which station is which, let me know and I can probably steer you on which department or unit is which.

 

[dave3825]

Generally with Harris systems dynamic patching occurs in the range 65100 to 65199 or so. I've seen other systems use other ranges, but 65xxx is the most common.

Our county trs is linked with another towns trs, and has full time patch talk groups in the 40xxx range. "All Call" tg on the town trs is 105 and full time patch shows on our county system as 40105. We see patches in the 20xxx, 23xxx, 40xxx and 65xxx ranges.

Our county is also linked with a neighboring counties trs but so far just seeing 65xxx temp patches.