Best Vertical Antenna for Shooting Skip on a Base Setup?

[Pyr8]

I have been looking at the "Hy-Gain SPT-500", however at 22.8 ft tall, I'm thinking it might be a little much in terms of height.

Suggestions and recommendations on other "vertical" type antennas are welcome.

 

[prcguy]

Its a proven winner for the last 40yrs. Smaller antenna, smaller signal, you can't change physics.
prcguy

I have been looking at the "Hy-Gain SPT-500", however at 22.8 ft tall, I'm thinking it might be a little much in terms of height.

Suggestions and recommendations on other "vertical" type antennas are welcome.

 

[AC9KH]

For good skywave propagation, and get the right radiation takeoff angle for it with QRP, you can't beat a horizontally polarized 1/2-wave dipole at 17-20 feet above ground. Or if you want a more unidirectional radiation pattern, then use an inverted V dipole. The polarization does not matter with skywave propagation. The only time vertical polarization will be needed is for local communication with other folks using vertical antennas. It's simple to switch back and forth with a coax switch from your horizontal to a vertical.

Shooting skip is technically illegal on 11 meters, but the FCC doesn't enforce it (that I've ever heard). The SPT-500 is also technically illegal for use on 11 meter because it extends more than 20 feet above the mounting structure.
Citizens Band (CB) Service | FCC.gov

The FCC has enforced the antenna rules from time to time. And a dude in Pennsylvania just got a $22,000 fine for running a 150w RF amp on his CB a couple months ago. So while the FCC enforcement of the 11 meter band is kind of lax (which has mostly contributed to its downfall), they are out there and nab people every once in awhile for infractions of the rules. Most of the good operators on CB from the early days have moved on to ham radio and never looked back. Leaving what we call the "lids" left on 11 meters.

 

[prcguy]

Around 1980 the FCC inspected my station for not giving my CB callsign every 10min of operation and I went probably an hour without giving my ID. They measured the height of my Hy-Gain Penetrator on a mast at 60ft and measured the radio I was supposedly using while committing my hideous infraction. They found the clairifier on the Pace 1000B was enabled on transmit and the switch for extra channels

When the pink slip arrived some time later (and it was pink) I was fined $50 for not identifying my station properly and the other items were listed but with no monetary forfeiture assigned. They didn't seem to care that much about antenna height.
prcguy

For good skywave propagation, and get the right radiation takeoff angle for it with QRP, you can't beat a horizontally polarized 1/2-wave dipole at 17-20 feet above ground. Or if you want a more unidirectional radiation pattern, then use an inverted V dipole. The polarization does not matter with skywave propagation. The only time vertical polarization will be needed is for local communication with other folks using vertical antennas. It's simple to switch back and forth with a coax switch from your horizontal to a vertical.

Shooting skip is technically illegal on 11 meters, but the FCC doesn't enforce it (that I've ever heard). The SPT-500 is also technically illegal for use on 11 meter because it extends more than 20 feet above the mounting structure.
Citizens Band (CB) Service | FCC.gov

The FCC has enforced the antenna rules from time to time. And a dude in Pennsylvania just got a $22,000 fine for running a 150w RF amp on his CB a couple months ago. So while the FCC enforcement of the 11 meter band is kind of lax (which has mostly contributed to its downfall), they are out there and nab people every once in awhile for infractions of the rules. Most of the good operators on CB from the early days have moved on to ham radio and never looked back. Leaving what we call the "lids" left on 11 meters.

 

[AC9KH]

Well, what I usually advise is don't ignore the rules just because you think the FCC doesn't enforce them. The Citizen's Band radio service is actually license by rule. And if you break a rule you can be fined for operating without a license. The base fine starts at $7,000 these days.

In October 2012 the FCC fined the operator of a legal CB station $18,000 for causing interference to a neighbor's television set (look it up on the FCC Enforcement Monitor). They came to that guy's place and nobody answered the door. So they sent a NAL requiring a response and the guy ignored them. They then broke out the troops with direction finding equipment and nailed him with evidence.

That guy ended up in Federal Court and got the base $7 Grand for causing interference to a primary service, plus $4 grand for failing to reply to a NAL, and another $7 Grand for failure to allow, or arrange for, inspection of his station.

The failure of CB operators to operate responsibly, and think the rules are for somebody else, is what has largely caused the downfall of CB Radio. And the FCC largely ignores the CB service because they got bigger fish to catch. And ~99% of the operators on CB are pretty much brainless idiots that don't have the first clue about how to even set the modulation on their radio, so they splatter themselves across about 5 channels thinking they're really "getting out there" with their new power mic. But every now and then they reel one in, and when they do they usually invent fines you've never even heard of before. So go ahead and break the rules all you want. Just remember that all it takes is one complaint from a neighbor and you can become the FCC's focus of undivided attention.

 

[RC286]

Antenna height should not be an issue, I don't think there are any regulations that limit antenna height for CB radios, other than of course following your local structural and electrical codes.

The antenna itself doesn't necessarily have to be physically long, its the height above ground that helps, and the efficiency of the antenna. Other factors are horizontal gain and takeoff angle, you want an angle relatively low to the horizon for long distance local and DX contacts. The lower angle allows the signal to travel further along the ground and refract of the ionosphere further away giving you longer skip distances than an antenna with a high takeoff angle. A lower takeoff angle usually also means a higher horizontal gain usually measured in dBi. A 5/8 ground plane antenna is usually a very good combination of all of these. (such as the hy-gain you have). The down side to low take off angle is for it to be decently effective, you need to get the antenna up higher off the ground as to avoid obstructing the signal path with foliage and building surrounding it.

 

[AC9KH]

Antenna height should not be an issue, I don't think there are any regulations that limit antenna height for CB radios, other than of course following your local structural and electrical codes.

CFR Title 47, Subchapter D, Part 95, Subpart D:

§95.408
(a) Antenna means the radiating system (for transmitting, receiving or both) and the structure holding it up (tower, pole or mast). It also means everything else attached to the radiating system and the structure.

(b) If your antenna is mounted on a hand-held portable unit, none of the following limitations apply.

(c) If your antenna is installed at a fixed location, it (whether receiving, transmitting or both) must comply with either one of the following:

(1) The highest point must not be more than 6.10 meters (20 feet) higher than the highest point of the building or tree on which it is mounted; or

(2) The highest point must not be more than 18.3 meters (60 feet) above the ground.

(d) If your CB station is located near an airport, and if you antenna structure is more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) high, you may have to obey additional restrictions. The highest point of your antenna must not exceed one meter above the airport elevation for every hundred meters of distance from the nearest point of the nearest airport runway. Differences in ground elevation between your antenna and the airport runway may complicate this formula. If your CB station is near an airport, you may contact the nearest FCC field office for a worksheet to help you figure the maximum allowable height of your antenna. Consult part 17 of the FCC's Rules for more information.

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

 

[JayMojave]

Hello Pry8: Yes the SPT500 is a 5/8 wavelength antenna that has a very low elevation or take off angle, and will work with local or skip traffic very well.

These 5/8 wavelength vertical antennas have a good reputation for performance and less interference to neighbors electronics, especially if you can get 30 to 40 feet high. Good luck.

Jay in the Mojave

 

[Pyr8]

Hello Pry8: Yes the SPT500 is a 5/8 wavelength antenna that has a very low elevation or take off angle, and will work with local or skip traffic very well.

These 5/8 wavelength vertical antennas have a good reputation for performance and less interference to neighbors electronics, especially if you can get 30 to 40 feet high. Good luck.

Jay in the Mojave

I think I have decided on the "IMAX-2000". Its tall, but has a lower overall profile.

 

[prcguy]

Antenna range testing shows the Penetrator has slightly more gain at the horizon than the IMAX-2000 and its built to last a lifetime. The IMAX is also reported to spew more RF downward into neighbors houses and their electronics, upping the potential for interference. Personally I would spend the extra $50 on the Penetrator.
prcguy

I think I have decided on the "IMAX-2000". Its tall, but has a lower overall profile.

 

[RC286]

A bunch of locals here use the IMAX-2000, and they seem to be a fairly decent performing antenna.

However I would like to raise a few quality control issues we have encountered when installing these antennas for our local group members.

3 antennas have literally snapped in half and folded over 2 after only a few years in the air, the third right out of the box.
one of these three had the bottom section banana peel right out of the box before it was even put up.
The local that bought it was able to repair it as he is adept at working with fiberglass. Not as pretty as out of the box now, but now it will stay in one piece.

The other two antennas that were folded in half on their masts/towers were replaced with new IMAX-2000 antennas. (for these two installs I was personally there for the repairs)

-First one, everything went to plan until we went to thread the top section in. The threads would not take. The top section was threaded with a metric 10 x 1 thread, and the top part of the second section was threaded with an SAE thread, not only threaded SAE but the threads weren't cut properly. We had to tap the top of the second section to make the top section fit.

-Second antenna was worse. Same issue, 10x1 on the top and SAE in the bottom, but the top was also cut poorly so even after we tapped out the second section it wouldn't fit until we chased it with a DIE.

Both of those antennas were purchased and installed maybe 2 months from one another. We contacted the vendor and the manufacture regarding this, and they said they weren't aware of the problem and will be looking into quality control issues.

I am not sure this has been resolved yet, as the last antenna was put up late October of this year.

Once we re-manufactured them so they would go together they work great, but we weren't impressed, especially getting two antennas in a row with the exact same problem.

Just thought I would give you a heads up that it may not go together out of the box, make sure you have a tap and die set on hand.

 

[Pyr8]

CFR Title 47, Subchapter D, Part 95, Subpart D:

§95.408
(a) Antenna means the radiating system (for transmitting, receiving or both) and the structure holding it up (tower, pole or mast). It also means everything else attached to the radiating system and the structure.

(b) If your antenna is mounted on a hand-held portable unit, none of the following limitations apply.

(c) If your antenna is installed at a fixed location, it (whether receiving, transmitting or both) must comply with either one of the following:

(1) The highest point must not be more than 6.10 meters (20 feet) higher than the highest point of the building or tree on which it is mounted; or

(2) The highest point must not be more than 18.3 meters (60 feet) above the ground.

(d) If your CB station is located near an airport, and if you antenna structure is more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) high, you may have to obey additional restrictions. The highest point of your antenna must not exceed one meter above the airport elevation for every hundred meters of distance from the nearest point of the nearest airport runway. Differences in ground elevation between your antenna and the airport runway may complicate this formula. If your CB station is near an airport, you may contact the nearest FCC field office for a worksheet to help you figure the maximum allowable height of your antenna. Consult part 17 of the FCC's Rules for more information.

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

I'm in the Mandalore System, no FCC oversight here!

 

[kc5qih]

just ground mount a 1/4 vertical fed against a good radial field and you'll have all the low angle radiation your heart can desire. It seems to me that when mounting a vertical antenna height doesn't really come into play on the HF(ish) frequencies. I have a 1/4 wave Hustler BTV mounted on the ground with radials and my signal propagates quite well but again i guess it's all about what your goals are. Now if you're feeing a 1/2 wave dipole you definitely have to get it up there at least 1/2 wave to get a useable lobe with low angle radiation and not just have a cloud warmer.

 

[AC9KH]

I'm in the Mandalore System, no FCC oversight here!

I see. So ahh....... why the interest in an antenna for skip then? Way out there what you really need is one of those Intergalactic Superbeamers with 9000 dBadv gain. I'm pretty sure some CB antenna manufacturer has one. Probably in both base and mobile versions. With a magnetic mount designed for TIE fighters.

 

[kc5qih]

You know the funny thing about FCC oversite on the CB band is that they are regulating against something you really have no control over, if you think about it. I mean a well designed & engineered station is going to propogate. Just look at 10 meters, when it's dead it's really dead but when it's open it's really really open so it would make sense that a 4 watt transmitter at 27Mhz with an effecient, low angle of radiation antenna, is going to travel further that what ground wave would prescribe.

 

[AC9KH]

That's basically right. There's pretty much no groundwave propagation on 11 meters - most local transmissions are radio horizon plus the normal ~15%. Groundwave propagation requires completion of the RF electrical circuit thru earth and it is more pronounced on 80 and 160 meters than it is on the higher frequencies. But skywave propagation is pretty pronounced at the peak of the sunspot cycle, and even at other times when we get some sporadic-E.

I think the original intent of the rule was to keep 11 meter communications local and discourage people from plugging the frequencies with needless chatter. But enforcing that is almost impossible to do.

The main problem with CB is the operators, not the service. Too many people that use their mic for something to blow in all day and say "auuudddioooo" over and over again. And modified radios operating out-of-band. And illegal so-called "export radios" marketed as 10m ham rigs that are modified to operate in the 11 meter band. And illegal RF amps. The FCC DOES nab quite a few of those every year (check their enforcement logs). And the people that get nabbed end up with fines starting at $7500.

Once you get off AM and on the sidebands there's some courteous and very professional operators on 11 meter. But AM is basically a rogue free-for-all that pretty much renders the service unusable for what it was originally intended for. Back in the day when we were all licensed operators, that wasn't the case. There was order, courtesy, and responsible operators - and more people on CB than there is today. So the Citizen's Band Radio Service, as the FCC calls it, has basically degraded to what it is today because of the operators thinking the rules are for somebody else, and that they can freely break them without getting caught.

If you read some of the FCC Enforcement actions against CB operators, some are quite interesting. Like one guy I was reading about that was running an RF amp. The FCC came in and inspected his station and found the amp hidden behind his couch. They confiscated it and gave him a warning. Two months later he was back at it again and the FCC raided his place again and confiscated another RF amp - this time slapping him with a Federal $20,000 fine for disregarding the first warning he got. And you either pay those Federal fines or you go to prison.

So the way I look it is, stupidity pretty much rules on CB radio.

 

[AC9KH]

My other thought is that eventually the FCC will end the CB service and return the 11 meter band to amateur operators. And the hams will shut down illegal operators pretty fast once they take control of the band.

CB will eventually move to the licensed GMRS and unlicensed FRS services that can only transmit line-of-sight.

 

[prcguy]

Not in our lifetime.
prcguy

QUOTE=KIN9405;2304900]My other thought is that eventually the FCC will end the CB service and return the 11 meter band to amateur operators. And the hams will shut down illegal operators pretty fast once they take control of the band.

CB will eventually move to the licensed GMRS and unlicensed FRS services that can only transmit line-of-sight.[/QUOTE]

 

[AC9KH]

Not in my lifetime.

Maybe not. But as I'm sure you're aware, competition for frequency space is pretty intense. When a band becomes rogue like the CB service has become where operators are running radios out of band in the so-called "freeband" spectrum, running illegal power, and generally causing a nuisance, its days are numbered.

Nobody ever thought analog TV would end in their lifetime either. But the FCC had no trouble re-allocating the frequencies used by channels 52 thru 69 to other users who wanted them.

 

[kc5qih]

Maybe not. But as I'm sure you're aware, competition for frequency space is pretty intense. When a band becomes rogue like the CB service has become where operators are running radios out of band in the so-called "freeband" spectrum, running illegal power, and generally causing a nuisance, its days are numbered.

Nobody ever thought analog TV would end in their lifetime either. But the FCC had no trouble re-allocating the frequencies used by channels 52 thru 69 to other users who wanted them.

I could see that part of the spectrum being changed if someone wanted to pay for it although i'm not sure why any would want to pay for 27 Mhz. Either way I think that most of us who have our Ticket in the Amateur Service probably got our start on 11 meters and it is what it is.