When the FCC can reach Canada where Pyr8 and the respondent in Winnipeg are located they might need to worry... until then I don't think the FCC has a pot to pee in north of the border.
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Best Vertical Antenna for Shooting Skip on a Base Setup?
- Thread starter Pyr8
- Start date
- Status
When the FCC can reach Canada where Pyr8 and the respondent in Winnipeg are located they might need to worry... until then I don't think the FCC has a pot to pee in north of the border.
FCC will not usually bother with CB unless there's a complaint filed against you, I have he SPT-500 on a 50 foot tower and a 8 foot mast. The height is illegal but if mounted above my roof I'm sure would cause interference with the neighbors. I talk over 60 miles with no power you would never do that with a wire antenna near the ground, may be good for skip, but what do you do at night when there is no skip? Theres many good antennas out there like maco, hygain, and custom ones too. Get what you can afford I say.
If you happen to have an amateur license then your Penetrator, Maco, etc can be half way to the moon and not worry because if anyone comes to the door its for 10m amateur use, not CB.
prcguy
prcguy
This confuses allot of people. Please note the little word outside the semicolon "or"...
These rules should have been numbered in the reverse order.
First, you can only go 60 feet above the ground. Think Tower.
Second, you can only go 20 feet above a structure (or tree). Well, my neighbor has a 80 pine tree, +20'? A 100' antenna tip in the 'burbs would be interesting :/
About the structure rule. Let's say you live in the downtown area of any city. You live in the penthouse of a 26 story apartment building. Are you required to go down to the 3rd floor and ask them if you can put an antenna hanging off their balcony? I think not. You can mount it on the roof next to the elevator shack (if you could get the mgmt's permission). High on a building is no different that the top of a mountain. Atmospheric elevation is not what the regs are about. So the 60 foot limit is for free standing towers and the 20 foot is for any height building. No where in the rules does it say "Whichever is less", it says "or", so go for the height!
What's this all about? It's all FAA. With the 60' limit, or 20 from a building, The Wise and All Powerful FCC did it right this time! They made sure no CBer would need to get a license for a taller tower which would require red lights and all that. It's all about the airplanes lol. Not the CB or CBer ("Just another plan invented by the man to keep a good CBer down!"). Taller towers (I'm not sure what length it kicks in) also require registering with the FCC. Every cell tower etc. has a "license plate" on it with all the FCC codes and ID. I can't imagine how they would keep track of CB antennas! They couldn't even contain CB licenses past the 70's lol
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AC9KH
Member
There's skip 24 hours a day.
This morning on 10 meters I talked to a friend in central Minnesota (about 200 miles) for about a half hour. I was running 750 watts on that QSO. Then I heard a fellow from Scotland calling CQ on 28.385. Since that's a QRP freq I switched off the amp and dropped to 100 watts. Talked to that fellow for about 10 minutes and he said I was 10db over in Scotland. This afternoon at 2300Z I heard a fellow from Australia calling CQ on 28.600. I like working greyline 10 meter. So I answered back. Talked to him for an hour on 80 watts and he said I was S9 to 10db over in Australia. All done with a 80m resonant wire dipole that's only 25 feet off the ground.
After dark I switch to 80 meters and just got done with a late night net about 20 minutes ago. Talked to people on the net covering almost half the United States running 110 watts. After the net was done I chatted with a friend up in Hurley (about 100 miles) on the net frequency for about 10 minutes before shutting my station down for the night. Still on that same 132 foot long wire dipole.
[rant]
The equipment available in the CB world was not made to simulate an unlicensed ham radio band. And that's the bottom line with CB. A legal CB radio can't even put out enough power to drive the latching relays in my auto tuner. The FCC rules for the band, and the equipment available for it, was designed for short-distance communications less than 20 miles. It baffles me why folks will go to great lengths to "talk skip" on CB. I spin the VFO on my rigs thru the 11 meter band and there's basically a bunch of idiots on there that were either born without a brain, or what little brain power they do have shuts off immediately when they get a mic in their hand. There's little chance of carrying on any sort of intelligible conversation thru all the garble, grossly over-modulated radios with few of them transmitting on center freq, and idiot operators keying over one another and shouting some sort of alien lingo into the mic. And none of 'em must own a dummy load because on any channel you find nitwits on the air that are blowing into the mic and saying "auuddiooooo" over and over again "tuning" up their grossly over-modulated carriers.
[/rant]
If you want to "talk skip" go to amateur radio. Then you'll put up a wire antenna and forget the "penetrator". Believe me, there's no comparison.
There's no comparison because a Hy-Gain Penetrator will outperform a 1/2 wave dipole horizontal or vertical at the same height for local or skip every time. I've compared them side by side for nearly 40yrs and the Penetrator always wins. I finally took down my 40yr old Penetrator and only have a modified Radio Shack 19' 10" 5/8 ground plane but I suspect that will probably outperform a dipole and I can test that today on 10m if you wish.
Why do you need so much power on 10m anyway? I work the world with 5 to 10w on a KX3 and get great reports from the US to Australia, Japan and EU on 10m. Years ago when playing with a grey market CB walki talki modified for 10m I had a nice chat with a fellow in the UK and I was in a parking lot in Long Beach, CA with a 5w SSB walki-talki with stock chrome telescoping whip on the radio.
Just last week I was in Texas checking into a 10m repeater in upstate NY using a KX3 and 80m offset fed dipole. I ran the power down to 1w and was still nearly full quieting into the repeater. Again, why do you run so much unnecessary power on 10m?
prcguy
Why do you need so much power on 10m anyway? I work the world with 5 to 10w on a KX3 and get great reports from the US to Australia, Japan and EU on 10m. Years ago when playing with a grey market CB walki talki modified for 10m I had a nice chat with a fellow in the UK and I was in a parking lot in Long Beach, CA with a 5w SSB walki-talki with stock chrome telescoping whip on the radio.
Just last week I was in Texas checking into a 10m repeater in upstate NY using a KX3 and 80m offset fed dipole. I ran the power down to 1w and was still nearly full quieting into the repeater. Again, why do you run so much unnecessary power on 10m?
prcguy
AC9KH
Member
That's peak envelope power. Average power is around 15-17 watts, for instance, on sideband when PEP drive is set to 100 (assuming modulation set correctly).
Few hams use vertically polarized antennas unless they are working 6 meters or higher frequencies. And even then a horizontally polarized beam on 2m sideband can easily talk 150 miles station to station with no repeaters on the same power that it takes on FM with a vertically polarized antenna to hit the repeater at 30 miles.
With vertical polarization there is more path loss because vertically-polarized energy is attenuated 1-2 dB more than horizontally-polarized radiation. Ignoring polarization on the higher freq bands, part of the reason for that is that FM is hampered by the higher noise floor due to the additional required receiver bandwidth (6-8dB) and the increased s/n ratio (another 4dB) because of the way FM discriminators work as compared to SSB. But still - the same problem exists in CB radio because 99% of people use AM instead of SSB. The one and only reason that vertical polarization is popular on 11 meters for base stations is because of mobiles that have vertical antennas.
AC9KH
Member
Around here 11 meters is quite popular for local communications on 27.335 and 27.355 MHz USB. But the people that are using them (including us) have been CB operators since the 70's and none of us use AM at all. And most of us use horizontally polarized yagi's unless we're communicating base to mobile and then we switch to our 1/4 wave ground plane.
We had an old Realistic base station for years at our house. We now have a 980SBB on a SL-11 power supply on the kitchen countertop tuned to 27.355 USB and it is as common for us to call one of the neighbors on 11 meters as it is for most folks these days to use their cell phones.
So CB is still in use for what it was intended for in some places. But we definitely don't use them for "shooting skip". In fact, when the idiots from down south start pushing the S meter past about S-4, talking like a bunch of swamp-bred nitwits, we either turn down the RF gain and tune them out, or swing the flat side on the beam around to reduce their senseless babble to more reasonable levels so we can use our radios for what they're really good at.
Attachments
100w SSB is 100w. Yes average power is lower depending on modulation density but the receiver at the other end is responding to your peak power not your average power.
Where do you get the additional path loss for vertical pol signals over horizontal? I've never heard of that and I do an amount of path loss calculations that end up in the FCCs files for interference cases.
I've run extensive tests on 2m with horizontal and vertical antennas and also comparing SSB to FM. Basically I find no perceivable difference at extreme distances with the same Yagi's used at both ends of the circuit in horizontal or vertical pol. Theoretically there will be a bit more noise contribution in vertical pol but I have not experienced any degradation from it.
When working 2M SSB, whenever possible I ask the other station to go to FM briefly on the same freq to see what the difference is and in most cases it works about the same, even on 200+mi simplex contacts. It also depends on the radio used as some work slightly better in FM mode and some SSB, depends on how the mfr designed the various parts of the radio. SSB should have an advantage due to the narrower receiver IF BW as you mention but there seems to be more difference between SSB and FM circuits in radios than theoretical.
prcguy
Where do you get the additional path loss for vertical pol signals over horizontal? I've never heard of that and I do an amount of path loss calculations that end up in the FCCs files for interference cases.
I've run extensive tests on 2m with horizontal and vertical antennas and also comparing SSB to FM. Basically I find no perceivable difference at extreme distances with the same Yagi's used at both ends of the circuit in horizontal or vertical pol. Theoretically there will be a bit more noise contribution in vertical pol but I have not experienced any degradation from it.
When working 2M SSB, whenever possible I ask the other station to go to FM briefly on the same freq to see what the difference is and in most cases it works about the same, even on 200+mi simplex contacts. It also depends on the radio used as some work slightly better in FM mode and some SSB, depends on how the mfr designed the various parts of the radio. SSB should have an advantage due to the narrower receiver IF BW as you mention but there seems to be more difference between SSB and FM circuits in radios than theoretical.
prcguy
AC9KH
Member
Well there's many schools of thought on the topic. But basically hams mostly only mess with vertical antennas on HF when they live in a place where it is not possible to install a horizontal. The biggest problems with vertical antennas for "shooting skip" is the impedance of the ground (quality of RF return path), having enough height to prevent signal attenuation with it's inherently lower radiation takeoff angle, and higher noise.
There's a combination of reasons why horizontally polarized beams and dipoles are used by ham operators over verticals. Not that some don't use verticals - they do. But the problem for most (unless you live on a boat on salt water) is signal attenuation due to a poor counterpoise. Not to mention that when you get to 20 meters and lower the length of a vertical gets to be somewhat of an engineering challenge and most hams aren't into vertical mast radiators like AM broadcast stations use.
It makes no difference to me what people want to use. But if (only theoretical, because I don't see the sense in it) I was setting up a LEGAL 11 meter base station for working DX, I'd use a horizontal dipole placed at 1/2 wavelength above ground.
There's a combination of reasons why horizontally polarized beams and dipoles are used by ham operators over verticals. Not that some don't use verticals - they do. But the problem for most (unless you live on a boat on salt water) is signal attenuation due to a poor counterpoise. Not to mention that when you get to 20 meters and lower the length of a vertical gets to be somewhat of an engineering challenge and most hams aren't into vertical mast radiators like AM broadcast stations use.
It makes no difference to me what people want to use. But if (only theoretical, because I don't see the sense in it) I was setting up a LEGAL 11 meter base station for working DX, I'd use a horizontal dipole placed at 1/2 wavelength above ground.
Most if not all HF amateur verticals are trapped or loaded types and inherently inefficient, and that's not including the ground/counterpoise problems that go with them. Then you have the oddball no ground verticals like GAP Titan, Cushcraft R7 or other gimmick types that are still short and loaded with the same efficiency problems.
Most hams with HF verticals do not install enough ground radials and the combination of a shortened inefficient vertical over an insufficient ground gives the HF vertical a bad rap. And it should, they usually work like crap compared to various wire antennas of much greater length, but that's on lower HF amateur bands where antennas need to be large.
The CB antennas that were being discussed like the Hy-Gain Penetrator are full length 5/8 wave with integral ground plane and its not a shortened compromise HF antenna. These outperform a CB half wave dipole under all conditions. The difference is not great in some cases but its there.
prcguy
Most hams with HF verticals do not install enough ground radials and the combination of a shortened inefficient vertical over an insufficient ground gives the HF vertical a bad rap. And it should, they usually work like crap compared to various wire antennas of much greater length, but that's on lower HF amateur bands where antennas need to be large.
The CB antennas that were being discussed like the Hy-Gain Penetrator are full length 5/8 wave with integral ground plane and its not a shortened compromise HF antenna. These outperform a CB half wave dipole under all conditions. The difference is not great in some cases but its there.
prcguy
kc5qih
Amateur Radio Operator and Scanning Enthusiast
This is a very entertaining thread. I'll go ahead and throw my .2 cents in. I, for one, use both a shortened trap vertical and an inverted L. I use the vertical on 12/15/17/20 & 40 meters and the Inverted L for 30/10/160 meters and both work fine. Now the vertical is over a pretty good ground radial system, well good for me anyway. I have 50 radials underneath the thing and it's feedpoint impedence is pretty low. I can't for the life of me figure out why I can't get it to work on 10..i'm thinking maybe the trap has gone bad or something but oddly enough it'll tune 12 meters just fine.
As far as the old argument about power ...think about it in terms of DB. The difference between 10 watts and 100 watts isn't going to be that different on the S meter. If you figure 3 db is good for 1 s unit and if you essentially have a doubling of power for every 3 DB, an S9 at 100 watts is effectively an S6 (or so at 10)..feel free to correct my math if I'm wrong here...or a better way to put it is that if your +30 at 100 watts you'll be, what? S9 at 10 watts..i mean it's not that big of a difference.
Oh and for what it's worth I worked France on 20 watts via PSK31 last night...I love CW but I sure am growing to enjoy digital....
AC9KH
Member
Yes, but on digital modes your transmitter is on 100% duty cycle. So you can set the RF drive at 20 watts and 20 watts is what it puts out both average and PEP on sideband. On phone it's different. When I work digital modes I rarely run more than 20 watts. The other night I was talking to the same friend I mentioned earlier up near the Michigan border with Olivia 500/8 on 40 meters (about 100 miles). We were exchanging messages at 20 watts and the band started to go to pot so I only got about 60% print on one transmission. I replied back after cranking up to 40 watts and told my friend to do the same. He replied at 40 watts and I got 90% print. For a transceiver designed to deliver 100W on PEP you can't run that on digital modes because you'll overheat the finals. So I dropped down to 5 watts and fired up the amp at 100 watts and replied back. We now got 100% print at 100 watts with the band going to pot and we talked another 15 minutes after that before we lost the NVIS signal.
You have to run whatever it takes. When I was talking to my friend in central Minnesota on 750 watts yesterday morning, that's what it took that time of day to get a copyable signal there.
This is what makes CB about totally useless for DX work. Like I said, you can't legally run enough power on CB to even drive the latching relays in my tuner, or even wiggle the needle on my watt meter. And yes, you can talk all over the world on 5 watts then brag that's all it takes. But that's not the whole story. For reliable communications any time you need it, sometimes you need power. And sometimes that's 1 kW or more depending on band conditions and noise level. There's a big difference between the 12w PEP you can run on CB and the 1.5 kW that we can run when we need it on amateur radio.
I haven't played CB in a long time and probably not since the late 70s and early 80s when I managed a CB store. Back then we had a hot sunspot cycle and nearly every day I had long regular conversations with friends 1,200mi away and also Australia on a regular basis with 5w and a decent antenna.
Right now I can talk to basically anyone I can hear with 5 or 10w on 10m with a handheld KX3, so CBs put out plenty of power to talk skip. The only real problem is CB a crowded band and you have to find a quiet spot to carry on with a stock power radio.
prcguy
Right now I can talk to basically anyone I can hear with 5 or 10w on 10m with a handheld KX3, so CBs put out plenty of power to talk skip. The only real problem is CB a crowded band and you have to find a quiet spot to carry on with a stock power radio.
prcguy
kc5qih
Amateur Radio Operator and Scanning Enthusiast
Well i think we can all agree that antenna efficiency is where it's really at. You can have all the power in the world but if your antenna system isn't good. ... it's all just useless heat
AC9KH
Member
Well, it's not the only real problem. It's like my sked I have with my friend in central MN at about 160 miles. You're not going to do that reliably, time after time on CB. On amateur radio we do. And sometimes it takes 1 kW, and sometimes it only takes 100 watts. We've not been able to do it on less than 100w PEP unless we would want to change our sked and the band we're using.
The isolated incidents when you can bounce a signal around the world on 4 watts of AM carrier on 11 meters are just that - isolated. And when it does happen there is no semblance of order, courtesy or even responsible operators on 11 meters that try to work it. 11 meters in its current state of affairs is a dead horse and you can flog it all you want. Give the band back to amateur operators where it came from in the first place, get the riff raff off the air, and then it'll work.
Let me step aside so I don't get hit by the shrapnel. This is a CB forum your trashing....
prcguy
prcguy
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KwitCher*****n
Oh get off it. I scan various areas of HAM bands and hear plenty of repeaters with Rouge operators. I hear swearing and arguing, jamming and whining. People are people where ever you go. Quit coming here and complaining about CBers. I'm tired of "CBers do this, and CBers do that" > HELLO? We are the CBers and we can hear you! You talk as if CBers are not here. If you don't like CBers, stay out of the CB forum. It's like going to the Optimist Club and talking about what people who wear glasses do. Think about it.
That being said...
I shoot skip with a Sirio 827. Come to think of it, I talk around my town with it too. I do use low power because the height of hte antenna is up there. It is 6.7 meters in length. I have it mounted on a 10'x2" pole, with an adapter to the vent pipe on the back bathroom which is roughly 12' up. So the mount and load coil is about 22.5' in the air and the tip of the antenna is roughly 32'. Unfortunately that puts it at the height of hte ctiy power lines. I'm looking for a 40' tower to get it up a little higher.
All Hams who come here to complain said:
Oh get off it. I scan various areas of HAM bands and hear plenty of repeaters with Rouge operators. I hear swearing and arguing, jamming and whining. People are people where ever you go. Quit coming here and complaining about CBers. I'm tired of "CBers do this, and CBers do that" > HELLO? We are the CBers and we can hear you! You talk as if CBers are not here. If you don't like CBers, stay out of the CB forum. It's like going to the Optimist Club and talking about what people who wear glasses do. Think about it.
That being said...
I shoot skip with a Sirio 827. Come to think of it, I talk around my town with it too. I do use low power because the height of hte antenna is up there. It is 6.7 meters in length. I have it mounted on a 10'x2" pole, with an adapter to the vent pipe on the back bathroom which is roughly 12' up. So the mount and load coil is about 22.5' in the air and the tip of the antenna is roughly 32'. Unfortunately that puts it at the height of hte ctiy power lines. I'm looking for a 40' tower to get it up a little higher.
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