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Best way to Update FCC License GPS coordinates

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BlueDevil

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I recently discovered that the GPS coordinates for one of FCC license I help manage are inaccurate.

What is the best way of updating the coordinates? Does this require brand new FCC application and frequency coordination?

Please share your experience.


Cheers,

Brandon
 

mmckenna

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Before you do that, make sure the map datum that you are using matches what was used when the license was applied for. Some FCC licenses use NAD27, while a lot of GPS units and mapping sources use WGS84.

If that's all correct, check to see how far off it is. If it's a few hundred feet, I wouldn't worry about it. If it's off by a lot, as in several hundred yards to miles, then you should probably update it. Issue to consider would be making sure the FCC knew you were simply updating the location, and it wasn't a system "move". If they see it as a relocation of the system, you don't want to end up having to go through any coordination again.
 

Voyager

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You would want to contact the FCC and get their advice, too. (not that I disagree with any of the above)
 

BlueDevil

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I wasn't around when the license was first applied for. Is there an easy way to determine which datum was used when the licensed was applied for?
 

Voyager

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Just check the datum of your source info and make sure it's the same one your license service uses with the FCC.
 

902

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How far off?

NAD27 and NAD83 are within the same ball park. Are we talking about off as in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, or in another state, or a few blocks away, or another part of the building?

Regardless, you'll need to submit a modification of your license with the proper coordinates to a frequency coordinator of your choice. The frequency coordinator may need to re-coordinate the frequency, as any protection (if it were public safety, business uses different methods) is based on the wrong parameters and a new incumbent with the proper information may have been placed on frequency.

Re-coordination in public safety also means that you'll need to pay the coordinator for the process of looking at that frequency at the correct location - if the difference is more than 5 arc-seconds.
 

Voyager

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Off a few to several hundred feet - depending on where you are on the globe.
 

SteveC0625

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Back when we were all modifying Part 90 licenses for narrowband emissions, I was advised by a coordinator that any adjustment of a half kilometer or less did not require re-coordination.
 

freddaniel

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Simply ask your coordinator.
Again, a few hundred feet is insignificant.
Do not rely upon a simple GPS for the new coordinates. Seek a "1A Survey" from a Surveyor.
 

BlueDevil

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It appears that our coordinates are off by just over 7 miles (7.2 to be exact). I wasn't around back when we applied for our license so I am not sure who or how this happened. To be this far off seem like gross negligence.
 

mmckenna

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Yeah, that needs to be fixed. If it's wrong on the license, another frequency coordinator could put someone else on the same frequency too close. Might create some heartburn, but fixing this now might save you trouble down the road.

Original cause?
Negligence, lazyness, system was moved, or just oversight.
 

902

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It appears that our coordinates are off by just over 7 miles (7.2 to be exact). I wasn't around back when we applied for our license so I am not sure who or how this happened. To be this far off seem like gross negligence.

I wouldn't call it gross negligence. You have to consider that many of the tools we take for granted were simply not around 20 or 25 years ago.

Years ago, people had to read a USGS Quadrangle map and interpolate points to get the proper latitude and longitude. It wasn't easy, and a lot of people never got the hang of it (I certainly didn't). DB Products made a plastic dealie that had graduations on it that you could line up with the latitude lines and the longitude lines, but if you weren't sure what you were getting, it could come out alpha foxtrot uniform. So, if you've had the license for a while, it might have been done before consumer access to GPS (1995?) and the turning off of selective availability (wouldn't give you a 7 mile error, though).

11 km is a pretty significant error. You will need to have that recoordinated, and coordination is pretty much a business. It will cost several hundred dollars or more to correct, depending on how many frequencies you have, and the system configurations on the license.

Get ready for pushback. The problem is that everyone who came on the frequency after your agency (or business, I don't know exactly what kind of license you have) was put there in consideration of the reported location. A coordinator might have put someone geographically closer because of the error. Now YOU have to protect them. You might have to cut your power back, lower your antenna, put up a directional antenna that "protects" the other licensee, or outright change frequencies. I know radio license situations that have gotten people fired (usually for letting things like 800 MHz trunked licenses expire).

You might be asked to provide "letters of concurrence" or "letters of non-interference." In an LOC, you write to another licensee and ask them for permission to use the frequency and possibly interfere with them. In a LONI, you send the other agency a letter that states you won't interfere with them, and if you do, you'll mutually work with them to fix it. Your coordinator will give you guidance if that's necessary.

Basically, you should tell the coordinator (you can take your pick, there are four public safety ones, each serving a certain constituency and each having access to a particular swath of spectrum to steward, and a bunch of business ones... your best bet might be to use the "home coordinator" of the frequency that needs to be corrected) that your coordinates are wrong and you're just correcting them. You have not moved the station. This way, the other coordinators will know when it goes out for notification. Frequency coordination is an adversarial process where another coordinators' coordinations are challenged through objection. The coordinators will not certify an application as successfully coordinated until the objection is resolved. The FCC can, but generally does not issue a license until a coordinator certifies successful coordination. They would rather return it and tell the applicant to work their problems out.

The FCC will not let you go into ULS and just enter the correct coordinates.

Good luck. I know a little about this if you want to PM me.
 

freddaniel

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Other factors such as the transmitter address being correct may also have some impact how the FCC and/or a coordinator treats the correction. For example, I had a license off by ONE DEGREE, but the address was correct. The FCC simply treated it as a typo and informally corrected the database.
The FCC and coordinators have a lot of unpublished policy to guide these issues, so depending upon the entire issue of nearest co-channel users, etc. they may swing either way. Remember, you are not the first to encounter this problem.
 

slicerwizard

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To be this far off seem like gross negligence.
I've seen licenses filed *and approved* in the last decade (e.g. in the GPSr age) for sites here in Toronto with coordinates in the middle of Lake Erie (on the U.S. side of the border, no less). To do that, both latitude and longitude have to be way off.

IMO, gross negligence by the licensee and by Industry Canada.
 

nd5y

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I've seen licenses filed *and approved* in the last decade (e.g. in the GPSr age) for sites here in Toronto with coordinates in the middle of Lake Erie (on the U.S. side of the border, no less). To do that, both latitude and longitude have to be way off.
Incompetence happens everwhere.
Here is a repeater withthe lat/lon in the middle of a lake on the Mexico side of the border.
KFR372 (TEXAS, STATE OF (TPWD)) FCC Callsign Details
 
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I had a typo in a STA that put my site in the Atlantic.
The nice FCC lady sent me an email letting me know my coordinates were outside US jurisdiction.

I replied "Then you owe me a refund!"

She loved my response.
 
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