Blue Angels - My observations

[batdude]

Recently attended their show in Melbourne, Florida.

Besides two of the jets unexpectedly landing mid-show (#5 landed, hopped in #7 and took off within 5 mins - continued show, then #6 landed) -- meaning to me is that they are still having significant issues with the new aircraft.

I do not wish to start a protracted debate with this post, but I'm sure I am going to rustle some feathers.

First and foremost. >MY OPINION< is that this was one of the worst shows I've ever seen the BAs fly. The narration was spotty, long gaps with no voice over or music, horrible attempts at mixing the "supposed" cockpit audio (more on that in a minute) - and in general, "UNPOLISHED" and "Low energy". Note that the Announcer did say this would be a high show because the cloud cover was nearly non-existent.

The "cockpit audio" that was ported over the PA system - to me, >MY OPINION< was either faked or pre-recorded - or was not on any of the normal BA freqs in the same time frame as the PA audio. In other words, numerous times during the show they would say "let's listen in" - and there would be "cockpit audio" piped into the PA system - but the radio and BA freqs were silent. It's possible they record this during their training on the day before the show. Don't know.

NO COMMS were noted when #5 or #6 deviated from the show and landed early. The only thing heard was a very brief announcement on the Air Boss freq that "I am landing". That was it. I would have fully expected a problem with the aircraft that required termination of the performance for that aircraft to have a bit more information passed to the ground crew/team.

As far as the "Normal BA freqs" I have two possible conclusions.

One - they are using (at least one) unpublished / unknown / new freqs
Two - they are up on SATCOM

I did spend a good 10 minutes with close call on (which was working fine - it was hitting on several of the UHF BA freqs during the show) - but no new freqs were observed.

As for the ground crew freqs, Alpha and Bravo were both heard with various activity related to the show. I did not hear a single transmission on Charlie.

The staging area for the BAs for this show were on the other side of the airport - so there was no opportunity to observe the comm cart or even get close to the jets.


Just my .02 --- flame away.



doug

 

[mancow]

Maybe using havequick?

 

[jsoergel]

If your scan list was the one you posted in the Florida forums, you're missing the diamond freq, 275.350.

The diamond flies with 275.350 in Comm 1 and the solos use 237.800 in Comm 1. All of them have 284.250 in Comm 2. All of the admin calls are done on Comm 2 and the formation calls are on Comm 1.

IMO, maybe cut them some slack - they just had their first aircraft transition in a few decades following a year without any shows. They're always a little loose in the spring and tighten up as the year progresses.

 

[GlobalNorth]

How many "new to the unit" aviators? Both the AF and the Navy provide their demo teams old aircraft that are deemed not fit for military operations - maintenance issues abound. Everything is live and there are no edits; thanks to modern media, we have come to expect perfection in movies, video, and any presentations. That is impossible to achieve by the Blue Angels, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, or in a child's Christmas pageant.

The production may have been off, but how was the actual piloting?

 

[batdude]

If your scan list was the one you posted in the Florida forums, you're missing the diamond freq, 275.350.

The diamond flies with 275.350 in Comm 1 and the solos use 237.800 in Comm 1. All of them have 284.250 in Comm 2. All of the admin calls are done on Comm 2 and the formation calls are on Comm 1.

IMO, maybe cut them some slack - they just had their first aircraft transition in a few decades following a year without any shows. They're always a little loose in the spring and tighten up as the year progresses.

i apologize for misleading a bit on that post - but yes, I did have 275.35 in my radio.



doug

 

[batdude]

How many "new to the unit" aviators? Both the AF and the Navy provide their demo teams old aircraft that are deemed not fit for military operations - maintenance issues abound. Everything is live and there are no edits; thanks to modern media, we have come to expect perfection in movies, video, and any presentations. That is impossible to achieve by the Blue Angels, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, or in a child's Christmas pageant.

The production may have been off, but how was the actual piloting?

i do not think it's unrealistic to expect that aircraft flying over crowds at 400+kts airspeed and distances between aircraft in single-digit meters to be "perfect".

the flying from what I could tell was good. The production (audio ... narration.... etc) was not up to my expectations.

losing 2 aircraft during a show for maintenance .... that's a bit much.

this statement:

Both the AF and the Navy provide their demo teams old aircraft that are deemed not fit for military operations - maintenance issues abound

i do not agree with - at least for the Blue Angels. T-birds -- don't know. I would find it odd that something that is unfit for military operations would be fit for (extreme) aerobatic flight, high G-loads, etc. would be placed into service with the demonstration team(s) from either the AF or Navy. Since only an insider would know what the exact problems experienced with the two aircraft during the show I was at - all we can do is guess.

that said, I think you are missing the key part of my post. I suspect there is something - somewhere - that we are missing as far as comms.


d

 

[GTR8000]

Both the AF and the Navy provide their demo teams old aircraft that are deemed not fit for military operations - maintenance issues abound.

Total nonsense. They would never endanger the safety or lives of the demo team pilots by giving them substandard aircraft to fly.

From the FAQ on the Blue Angels website:

Q: What are the major differences between the fleet model and the Blue Angel F/A-18?
A: The Blue Angel F/A-18s have the nose cannon removed, a smoke-oil tank installed and a spring installed on the stick which applies pressure for better formation and inverted flying. Otherwise, the aircraft that the squadron flies are the same as those in the fleet. Each Blue Angel aircraft is capable of being returned to combat duty aboard an aircraft carrier within 72 hours.

Q: Are Blue Angels' aircraft carrier capable?
A: All of the Blue Angels' jets are carrier-capable and can be made combat ready in about 72 hours. The squadron's C-130 ("Fat Albert") is manned by an all-Marine Corps crew and was not designed for carrier operations.

 

[vagrant]

What are your sources for this statement? I and perhaps others would like to read more about this for clarity. Thank you

Both the AF and the Navy provide their demo teams old aircraft that are deemed not fit for military operations - maintenance issues abound.

There is a Blue Angles air show at Lemoore NAS about once a decade. Communications were on the money in 2011. I missed the 2019 show.

 

[ProScan]

I've seen Blue Angels YouTube videos a few years back interviewing ex pilots. They were talking about that they get the aircraft that the Navy & Marines don't want and they don't have the latest avionics.

 

[GlobalNorth]

The point of an air show is to showcase the flying, not the comms. If you prefer focusing on the comms, you might as well take an RV to the airshow and participate in comfort listening to a bank of receivers.

The USN BA flew A-4 Skyhawks until 1986, decades after they were considered combat capable. They never used the more advanced Tomcat fighters. The early F/A-18s are no longer used for combat ops because of too many hours on their airframes. Hours in combat and or combat training, carrying hardpoints loaded with weapons places significantly more stress on an airframe and flight surfaces than a stripped airframe flown in formation flights, to including aerobatics. A carrier take off and landing is far harder on an aircraft than a land based TO/landing. Aircraft have a lifecycle akin to a inverse bell curve - high levels maintenance are required at the beginning of service life, as well as towards the end.

Don't illogically assume my point that because they are given older aircraft that they somehow are ready for the boneyard at Tucson and unsafe. That's your erroneous gross assumption, not my statement of fact.

What on earth does a Blue Angel or Thunderbird need with a LANTRIN pod or NVGs on a flight demo aircraft used for airshows and related training? They don't. Like SCCA racers, they strip their aircraft of unnecessary complexity and weight. A qualified shop can add hardpoints, EW pods, and targeting gear within 72 hours - but they can't strip the plane of the bright blue and gold livery and properly repaint the aircraft within the same time period. The paint will not have dried properly unless it is done at a higher echelon shore installation with infrared heaters in the paint booth.

 

[TDR-94]

Maybe using havequick?

No HQ activity that I could detect. Maybe using LINK16/22.

HQ activity will be becoming less frequent, as it's being phased out for SATURN in the coming years. New jamming technologies and the ability for adversaries to monitor much of the traffic with SDR's, has made it obsolete. SATURN's hop rate is much faster and uses strictly digital modulation techniques along with the capability to use the next generation of encryption standards (STaC-IS), to replace VINSON, pretty much make using an SDR or banks of scanners to monitor voice traffic, useless.

 

[jsoergel]

No HQ activity that I could detect. Maybe using LINK16/22.

HQ activity will be becoming less frequent, as it's being phased out for SATURN in the coming years. New jamming technologies and the ability for adversaries to monitor much of the traffic with SDR's, has made it obsolete. SATURN's hop rate is much faster and uses strictly digital modulation techniques along with the capability to use the next generation of encryption standards (STaC-IS), to replace VINSON, pretty much make using an SDR or banks of scanners to monitor voice traffic, useless.

There’s no reason for them to use HQ, and no precedent either.

 

[vikingegfd]

Maintenance issues would explain the frequent flights of Fat Alpert back to home base during the last 2 shows.

 

[batdude]

of note, from Larry Van Horn's twitter:

 

[jsoergel]

of note, from Larry Van Horn's twitter:

View attachment 104407

Yes, that was heard one day last week in Annapolis but not noted in the subsequent demos. Typically it’s a spare freq used in place of 305.900, but rarely used.

The usual 284.250/275.350/237.800 freqs were confirmed, along with 255.200 (used for circle and arrivals).

 

[Hooligan]

Decades ago, I heard the Blue Angels briefly discussing how they could use the poor weather (which was above minimums) as an excuse to canx their Sunday performance & get back home to Pensacola a day early.

The next year, while up doing a familiarization flight, I heard them teasing one of their pilots about the 'double-bagger' ugly chick he'd
picked-up at a reception held for them the evening before & had sex with.

But despite that, a primary reason why BAs & T-Birds often communicate using plain old UHF-AM in-addition to during the performances is because crypto or HQ degrades the voice circuit quality enough to be a concern -- they can lose the voice inflections of Boss (hmm, that's Thunderbird vernacular -- the BA's may use "Skipper") or timing/manoevering info that's critical for them to understand when performing. At-least for the USAF Thunderbirds, the TADIL-J Voice Group 16kbps codec upgrade gives them good enough audio quality to confidently use Link-16 voice when able.

By the way, at least one block of the early Super Hornets were to be equipped with HF/SSB radios. Wouldn't it be cool if the Blue Angels used HF for their performances?

F-16 Block 52 Upgrades Set to Take Thunderbirds into the Future

TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Florida -- Just like their combat Falcon counterparts, the Air Force Thunderbirds F-16s are receiving the same upgrades to keep the jets flying for decades into the future, officials said. The Thunderbirds fly the Block 52 variant F-16C and D models.

www.military.com

 

[jsoergel]

I can confirm the Blues were using the following freqs last week in Buffalo:

237.800 (8) Solos
275.350 (9) Diamond
305.500 (10) Fat Albert
284.250 (16) Diamond
255.200 (17) Solos

 

[mancow]

Seems strange since 305.5 is a common refueling track freq.

 

[ecps92]

FA used to use 305.9000, maybe a typo/fat finger from the OP ?

Seems strange since 305.5 is a common refueling track freq.

 

[jsoergel]

No, it’s 305.500 this year. Had been used as a spare for 305.900 years ago, but 305.500 has been noted at several shows this year. I can confirm they had 305.500 as Button 10 last week.