DSDPlus DSDPlus with DMR Cap+ System

[erjr00]

Hey all,

Struggling to figure out how to use DSDPlus to monitor a DMR Cap+ MOTOTRBO system/network. Back story is I started working at a new job, and for fun, I wanna monitor the radio traffic at home. Here's the video that I was referencing to help me out:

I've also attached some screenshots to show how far I've gotten, if that helps.


Here's what I know/have found out so far:

• There are 2 frequencies - 853.263 MHz & 853.513 MHz
• Cap+ systems are unique and don't have a dedicated control channel? The "rest" channel moves around every so often?
• The system has (that I've been able to see so far via the info DSDPlus is telling me) 8 groups and 28 radios.
• DSDPlus says that Cap+ repeater channels 1 & 2 are 853.263, and that 3 & 4 are 853.513

So, a couple of questions:

• Firstly, is it correct to have the FMP24-CC.bat file have the "-f853.263" string? For normal trunking, that would make sense, but Cap+ control/rest channel is always moving. What do I do here?
• Secondly, looking at my settings below, have I done everything right so far? Have I missed anything? You don't know what you don't know, as they say.
• Thirdly, when I put this into the DSDPlus.frequencies file, I lose audio. I still can see stuff happening in the command window and activity window, but no audio. What's up with that?

Cap+, 0, 1, 1, 853.263, 0, 0​

Cap+, 0, 1, 2, 853.263, 0, 0​

Cap+, 0, 1, 3, 853.315, 0, 0​

Cap+, 0, 1, 4, 853.315, 0, 0​

Any help, additional info, or pointing out what I've done wrong/missed would be much appreciated. Thanks all.

 

[CanesFan95]

Those frequencies don't look right. It's usually a multiple of 12.5 kHz, like 853.3125.

 

[erjr00]

Those frequencies don't look right. It's usually a multiple of 12.5 kHz, like 853.3125.

Im pretty sure they're correct. I mean im not 100% because I don't have access to the programming files but I would say this is them. Also they're 250 kHz apart, which is 20x12.5. So its 20 standard spacings away.

 

[mtindor]

Im pretty sure they're correct. I mean im not 100% because I don't have access to the programming files but I would say this is them. Also they're 250 kHz apart, which is 20x12.5. So its 20 standard spacings away.

The frequencies as you listed them are not correct. But I'm sure they are not far off. What you have in your files is fine. Doesn't make sense to specify the 853 freq on the command line of the batch file since it's Cap+. You do want CTRL --> Hunt For Lost Control channels set.

You really should submit that system to the database. I see you obviously feel like you want to keep it to yourself, while then also asking others to help you figure out how to trunktrack it. Gutsy.

Anyway, it should work as you have it even though you don't have the absolutely correct frequencies. As long as each signal looks like it is "on center" in your FMP24, you shouldn't have issues.

 

[erjr00]

The frequencies as you listed them are not correct. But I'm sure they are not far off. What you have in your files is fine. Doesn't make sense to specify the 853 freq on the command line of the batch file since it's Cap+. You do want CTRL --> Hunt For Lost Control channels set.

You really should submit that system to the database. I see you obviously feel like you want to keep it to yourself, while then also asking others to help you figure out how to trunktrack it. Gutsy.

Anyway, it should work as you have it even though you don't have the absolutely correct frequencies. As long as each signal looks like it is "on center" in your FMP24, you shouldn't have issues.

What makes you say the 2 frequencies aren't correct? They look pretty dead-on in SDR++

So instead of "FMP24 -rc -i0 -o20001 -P0.0 -f853.263", I just put "FMP24 -rc -i0 -o20001 -P0.0" in the FMP24-CC.bat?

Also, hunt for lost control channels is checked.

Do you have an idea for the missing audio when I set the frequencies in the config file, but it comes back when I get rid of them?

And I don't want to keep it to myself, not sure why you would assume so. If I can get all of the info for the system, I actually would like to submit it. Though I'd need some assistance in doing so as I've never done that before.

 

[mtindor]

Because, those frequencies aren't using proper spacing. So I know they are off. They might look dead on in FMP24, but that's probably because your dongle is "off" some number of ppm.

You can leave the -f853.263 in there. All that does is set the initial frequency it uses when you start up FMP24. It could be any freq. Really doesn't matter though, since once FMP24 is started you can focus on FMP24 and type in water frequency you want it to be on.

Ok, well that's good news. I just figured you were wanting to keep it to yourself because you were masking out the system name and such.

Anyway, you don't want to submit those freqs. You want to figure out what the actual freqs are, which are like going to be 853.26## and 853.31## . four digits likely at the end.

 

[RaleighGuy]

And I don't want to keep it to myself, not sure why you would assume so. If I can get all of the info for the system, I actually would like to submit it. Though I'd need some assistance in doing so as I've never done that before.

Anyway, you don't want to submit those freqs. You want to figure out what the actual freqs are, which are like going to be 853.26## and 853.31## . four digits likely at the end.

If you know who the system belongs to, do a search in the FCC database and you may find the proper information on frequencies. If you do not know who it belongs to do a search using the frequency ranges between 853.26 to 853.27 and 853.31 to 853.32. The license may also show you other missing frequencies (if any).

 

[erjr00]

Because, those frequencies aren't using proper spacing. So I know they are off. They might look dead on in FMP24, but that's probably because your dongle is "off" some number of ppm.

You can leave the -f853.263 in there. All that does is set the initial frequency it uses when you start up FMP24. It could be any freq. Really doesn't matter though, since once FMP24 is started you can focus on FMP24 and type in water frequency you want it to be on.

Ok, well that's good news. I just figured you were wanting to keep it to yourself because you were masking out the system name and such.

Anyway, you don't want to submit those freqs. You want to figure out what the actual freqs are, which are like going to be 853.26## and 853.31## . four digits likely at the end.

Oh, ya I covered up the name because im a summer college co-op student there, so I'd rather not get in sh*t while I'm here. Also privacy while I'm in the new town away from home; It's temp work. I'd submit it (if I can get the whole system complete and figured out), after I head back home in September.

I mean both my RTL SDR dongles said those frequencies, and I even switched over to my SDRplay RSPDx, and it said the same thing. Here's some pics

 

[erjr00]

If you know who the system belongs to, do a search in the FCC database and you may find the proper information on frequencies. If you do not know who it belongs to do a search using the frequency ranges between 853.26 to 853.27 and 853.31 to 853.32. The license may also show you other missing frequencies (if any).

I'm in Ontario, Canada :/

 

[RaleighGuy]

I'm in Ontario, Canada :/

So much for my idea

 

[mtindor]

Oh, ya I covered up the name because im a summer college co-op student there, so I'd rather not get in sh*t while I'm here. Also privacy while I'm in the new town away from home; It's temp work. I'd submit it (if I can get the whole system complete and figured out), after I head back home in September.

I mean both my RTL SDR dongles said those frequencies, and I even switched over to my SDRplay RSPDx, and it said the same thing. Here's some pics

I wonder if its this system (fairly outdated Smartnet) updated to Cap+.

BearCom Canada - Woodstock Trunking System, Woodstock, Ontario

BearCom Canada - Woodstock Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

853.2625 and 853.5125 would be the freqs most likely though, the proper freqs according to general channel spacing, etc. May not be this system.

Your SDR software and DSDPlus are only as good as hte device you are using, and most are off freq a little bit. Plus, transmitters aren't always dead on freq. So my guess would be that those two freqs would be the actual freqs.

And IF the system I linked to above is what you are listening to and they converted to Cap+, then you have some more potential freqs to look at.

 

[erjr00]

I wonder if its this system (fairly outdated Smartnet) updated to Cap+.

BearCom Canada - Woodstock Trunking System, Woodstock, Ontario

BearCom Canada - Woodstock Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

853.2625 and 853.5125 would be the freqs most likely though, the proper freqs according to general channel spacing, etc. May not be this system.

Your SDR software and DSDPlus are only as good as hte device you are using, and most are off freq a little bit. Plus, transmitters aren't always dead on freq. So my guess would be that those two freqs would be the actual freqs.

And IF the system I linked to above is what you are listening to and they converted to Cap+, then you have some more potential freqs to look at.

I found that last night too, and I have a feeling it may have something to do with that, though not entirely that system.

Even though still in Ontario, I'm roughly a 20-hour drive from Woodstock. But what makes me think it could be related is that I know we have our own radios for the company, but we do rent a bunch more for a heavy influx of contract workers, and the radios all work together. I don't know who we rent from, but I checked BearCom's website, and they rent out 7580s, which is what we use. So the coincidence is high.

As for additional frequencies, I'm in a rural and remote town with only one big business, so I'm like 99% certain there's only the two freq's from what I can see scanning around on the SDR. with that being said, something popped up on DSDPlus last night that I dunno what it means (see picture), it said it found a neighbouring site? site 8? Not sure exactly what it means or what to do with that info.

It popped up when I was messing around with the frequencies config file, trying to get that to work. Not sure what I'm supposed to do there, if you have any ideas, let me know? I still feel like I'm missing some settings or info because I lose audio and lose the rest channel, and consequently miss traffic every once and a while. I think it's gotta be something to do with the FMP24-CC.bat or DSDPlus.frequencies file???

I'm semi-new and no master to DSDPlus, but my end goal is to get the whole system figured out so I can submit it to the database after the summer is over. So any help or directions on how to accomplish it would be greatly appreciated!

 

[mtindor]

I found that last night too, and I have a feeling it may have something to do with that, though not entirely that system.

Even though still in Ontario, I'm roughly a 20-hour drive from Woodstock. But what makes me think it could be related is that I know we have our own radios for the company, but we do rent a bunch more for a heavy influx of contract workers, and the radios all work together. I don't know who we rent from, but I checked BearCom's website, and they rent out 7580s, which is what we use. So the coincidence is high.

As for additional frequencies, I'm in a rural and remote town with only one big business, so I'm like 99% certain there's only the two freq's from what I can see scanning around on the SDR. with that being said, something popped up on DSDPlus last night that I dunno what it means (see picture), it said it found a neighbouring site? site 8? Not sure exactly what it means or what to do with that info.

It popped up when I was messing around with the frequencies config file, trying to get that to work. Not sure what I'm supposed to do there, if you have any ideas, let me know? I still feel like I'm missing some settings or info because I lose audio and lose the rest channel, and consequently miss traffic every once and a while. I think it's gotta be something to do with the FMP24-CC.bat or DSDPlus.frequencies file???

I'm semi-new and no master to DSDPlus, but my end goal is to get the whole system figured out so I can submit it to the database after the summer is over. So any help or directions on how to accomplish it would be greatly appreciated!

Did you capture that "site 8" line while monitoring one of the two previously mentioned frequencies, or were you scanning around when you found that? Because there are going to be single-site Cap+ systems with no neighbors and there are going to be multi-site Cap+ systems with neighbors and multiple sites, considering where you are.

If the site you are monitoring is actually site 1, you need to update your DSDPlus.Sites, DSDPlus.frequencies files to reflect that. Cap+ sites that don't advertise a site number are standalone sites.

Typically for Cap+ systems you will want to DSDPlus.Networks entry with a made-up Network ID (since there are no Network Ids on Cap+ systems and it makes it hard to trunktrack multiple ones if you don't use fictitious network IDs).

example (using fictitious network ID 9999)

DSDPlus.networks
Cap+, 9999, "unknown system"

DSDplus.sites
Cap+, 9999, 1, "location 1"
Cap+, 9999, 8, "location 8"

DSDPlus.frequencies
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 2, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 853.5125, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 4, 853.5125, 0, 0

If you do things that way, then you can have many Cap+ systems in your DSDplus.* files and they will be differentiated by the fictitious Network IDs.

Mike

 

[dave3825]

Aside from the freqs not being correct with the prober spacing, you have the first freq as channel 1 and 2 and the second freq as channel 3 and 4.

How did you get that? Did something like this pop up in the event window?

853.263000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
853.315000 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)


If not, follow these steps

Cap+ monitoring
---------------

Follow these steps to monitor / follow the rest channel and voice calls on a Cap+ system

a) select a network ID

Cap+ systems do not broadcast a network ID

If the system has been added to the RadioReference database, use its page number

Otherwise, assign the system a unique NID (9999, for example)

b) create an entry in the DSDPlus.networks file

Example:

Cap+, 9999, "Mayberry PD"

c) if the network has multiple sites, create entries in the DSDPlus.sites file

Example:

Cap+, 9999, 1, "North"
Cap+, 9999, 2, "South"
Cap+, 9999, 3, "East"
Cap+, 9999, 4, "West"

d) for each known system frequency, create a channel record in the DSDPlus.frequencies file

Initially, use invalid channel numbers

Example:

; Mayberry PD North

Cap+, 9999, 1, 99, 450.5000, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 99, 451.2625, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 99, 454.9125, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 99, 455.5000, 0.0, 0

e) tune CC FMPA/FMP24 to an active system channel (note: TCP link required)

CC DSD+ will scan the DSDPlus.frequencies file for a Cap+ record with the same frequency;
The first matching record will be used

CC DSD+ will use the frequency record to establish the system's network ID

CC DSD+ will use the NID to display the network and current site names

f) at some point, DSD+ should determine the channel's ordering
and display it in the event log window

Example:

"450.500000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)"

Use the information to edit the channel's record in the DSDPlus.frequencies file

Note: continue to use invalid channel numbers

Example:

Cap+, 9999, 1, 101, 450.5000, 0.0, 0

g) repeat e) and f) for each active system channel

Example:

"451.262500 is third Cap+ repeater (Ch5 and Ch6)"
"454.912500 is fourth Cap+ repeater (Ch7 and Ch8)"
"455.500000 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)"

Cap+, 9999, 1, 101, 450.5000, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 105, 451.2625, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 107, 454.9125, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 103, 455.5000, 0.0, 0

h) when the ordering of all of a site's active channels has been determined,
edit the channel records so they have the correct channel numbers

Example:

Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 450.5000, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 455.5000, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 5, 451.2625, 0.0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 7, 454.9125, 0.0, 0

CC DSD+ will now automatically direct CC FMPA/FMP24 to follow the rest channel
and direct VC FMPA/FMP24 to follow voice calls

i) in the future, to monitor this site, tune CC FMPA/FMP24 to the current rest channel

You do not need to list each freq twice so when all is said and done,


DSDPlus.frequencies
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 853.5125, 0, 0

 

[erjr00]

Did you capture that "site 8" line while monitoring one of the two previously mentioned frequencies, or were you scanning around when you found that? Because there are going to be single-site Cap+ systems with no neighbors and there are going to be multi-site Cap+ systems with neighbors and multiple sites, considering where you are.

If the site you are monitoring is actually site 1, you need to update your DSDPlus.Sites, DSDPlus.frequencies files to reflect that. Cap+ sites that don't advertise a site number are standalone sites.

Typically for Cap+ systems you will want to DSDPlus.Networks entry with a made-up Network ID (since there are no Network Ids on Cap+ systems and it makes it hard to trunktrack multiple ones if you don't use fictitious network IDs).

example (using fictitious network ID 9999)

DSDPlus.networks
Cap+, 9999, "unknown system"

DSDplus.sites
Cap+, 9999, 1, "location 1"
Cap+, 9999, 8, "location 8"

DSDPlus.frequencies
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 2, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 853.5125, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 4, 853.5125, 0, 0

If you do things that way, then you can have many Cap+ systems in your DSDplus.* files and they will be differentiated by the fictitious Network IDs.

Mike

When I get rid of the Cap+, 0, 1, "" string in DSDPlus.sites, I get this (picture). So I think it's defining itself as site 1 with a neighbouring site 8? I'm not sure what site numbers are and mean to be honest. If you can't tell I'm new to the whole scanning thing, but have been able to brute force and stumble my way through this so far, haha. I come from a traditional amateur radio background, not so much a hardcore scanning or digital one.

I added all the things you said to those three files, and this is what I got (other pictures).

I guess the questions I have now are:

1. How do I know when I have all the information on the system? What could I be missing?
2. How do I know I have the CORRECT information on the system?
3. If I have everything there is to find and it's all correct, where do I go from there?

Thanks for all your help btw, this is pretty in-depth for me and a bit over my head. I'll be sure to submit all the data (if its all correct) once I'm finished my co-op at this place!

 

[erjr00]

Aside from the freqs not being correct with the prober spacing, you have the first freq as channel 1 and 2 and the second freq as channel 3 and 4.

How did you get that? Did something like this pop up in the event window?

853.263000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
853.315000 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)


If not, follow these steps



You do not need to list each freq twice so when all is said and done,


DSDPlus.frequencies
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 853.5125, 0, 0

853.263000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
853.315000 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)

Are exactly what I got in the 1R event log window. But I think that only showed up AFTER I put them in the config file? Not positive, short memory lol. I've since changed the freq's to: 853.262500 and 853.512500 as I think those are the correct freq's. Current frequencies config file is visible in my latest reply to mtindor.

 

[mtindor]

853.263000 is first Cap+ repeater (Ch1 and Ch2)
853.315000 is second Cap+ repeater (Ch3 and Ch4)

Are exactly what I got in the 1R event log window. But I think that only showed up AFTER I put them in the config file? Not positive, short memory lol. I've since changed the freq's to: 853.262500 and 853.512500 as I think those are the correct freq's. Current frequencies config file is visible in my latest reply to mtindor.

Those two things would show up regardless of whether you had the DSDPlus.* files populated. DSDPlus sees information that comes across the current active voice channel that lets it know.

So you have them right. 1 & 2 are 853.2625, 3 & 4 are 853.5125.

Dave is correct that you only have to add either the odd LSNs or the even LSNs. You don't have to have both in the DSDPlus.frequencies file. But I do, and when I advise somebody on how to set things up I tell them to add both odd and even. You can choose to do it either way.

The Event Window looks correct -- showing Cap+ fictitious Network ID 9999, Site 1 with a neighbor site of 8

You may or may not be able to find anything out about site 8 -- it might not be within range of you, or if you scan the band you may not find a site 8 active freq.

But before you can submit, you do have to know the agency who owns/runs the system. You can't go by what I said (Bearcom). If you submit it as Bearcom, you'd have to be sure about that based upon other reasons.

Mike

 

[dave3825]

You don't have to have each freq listed twice if you don't want to. This will work using either odd or even channel numbers. I use odd.

DSDPlus.frequencies
Cap+, 9999, 1, 1, 853.2625, 0, 0
Cap+, 9999, 1, 3, 853.5125, 0, 0

Also easier when mapping a system with more freqs, like this.

Cap+, 9007, 1, 1, 460.6500, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 3, 460.8250, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 5, 460.8500, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 7, 461.9625, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 9, 463.6875, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 11, 464.0000, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 1, 13, 464.3250, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 2, 1, 451.6625, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 2, 3, 452.2000, 0.0, 0,
Cap+, 9007, 2, 5, 464.5875, 0.0, 0,

 

[erjr00]

Those two things would show up regardless of whether you had the DSDPlus.* files populated. DSDPlus sees information that comes across the current active voice channel that lets it know.

So you have them right. 1 & 2 are 853.2625, 3 & 4 are 853.5125.

Dave is correct that you only have to add either the odd LSNs or the even LSNs. You don't have to have both in the DSDPlus.frequencies file. But I do, and when I advise somebody on how to set things up I tell them to add both odd and even. You can choose to do it either way.

The Event Window looks correct -- showing Cap+ fictitious Network ID 9999, Site 1 with a neighbor site of 8

You may or may not be able to find anything out about site 8 -- it might not be within range of you, or if you scan the band you may not find a site 8 active freq.

But before you can submit, you do have to know the agency who owns/runs the system. You can't go by what I said (Bearcom). If you submit it as Bearcom, you'd have to be sure about that based upon other reasons.

Mike

I've been monitoring for the past couple of days, and I think I've got it completely working. Even managed to get the names/aliases of the talk groups/channels. I do have a couple of further questions, though:

• Is there any way that when I start up the program (FMP24-CC.bat, then 1R.bat), it can check both of the possible frequencies? its a 50/50 shot whether the rest channel is on the startup freq or not. It's not the end of the world to click on the rest channel on the FFT, but it would be cool if I could get it to check for me if it doesn't start up on the right one.
• Is the only way to find the neighbouring "Site 8" by just scanning around in DSDplus direct monitor and see if I can capture DMR traffic? Like, DSDplus isn't going to give me additional info on it? Also, how did it "find" the neighbouring site? Does that data come across the rest or voice channels?
• The "networkID" in the .networks file is just an arbitrary number that we (the user) set if we have multiple networks programmed into our DSDPlus program?
• In the 1R DSD+ window while running. Sometimes I get +DMR, and sometimes I get +Cap+. I'm assuming having Cap+ in my settings is correct, as Cap+ is just a special version of DMR? I don't need to add or change anything, the program knows what's up?

Sorry for the long and many questions. You've been an awesome help though, and I really appreciate it.

 

[dave3825]

Pretty sure if you have the freqs programmed in your DSDPlus.frequencies file, it will cycle thru them. You might have to have the system in your site loader. I select cap+ systems from mine and it does cycle to the active rest.