Brevard County TRS upgrades coming

[ElroyJetson]

I don't know the specifics yet, but there will be some upgrades coming to the Brevard County EDACS public safety trunked system very shortly.

This has been personally confirmed to me by officers in two separate police departments although neither of them knew the specifics.

I have heard radio techs doing channel by channel audio checks in ProVoice mode.

My GUESS...and this is ONLY a guess...is that some departments will be at least making greater use of ProVoice.

At this stage in the game this is a reasonable presumption as the majority of the P7100s used by the various PDs and the Sheriff's department have the ProVoice option in them. (Same for the M7100 mobiles) So to upgrade to actually using ProVoice would only require reprogramming of the radios and NOT making a large capital expenditure.

Spending a lot of money on an EDACS system at this point in time would not be a wise financial decision
as Harris will discontinue support for EDACS in just a few short years.

However, Harris has a clearly defined migration plan to migrate EDACS customer to P25ip.

The migration plan is outline clearly in this document from Harris:

http://pspc.harris.com/media/ECR-7684A-EDACS to P25 Migration-page by page-small_tcm42-11728.pdf


In the short term, any presumed migration to ProVoice will make it harder for people to use a scanner to listen to the system and will temporarily increase the value of surplus EDACS radios that carry the ProVoice option (option no. 29).

In the long term, the system is probably going to transition to P25 and will then again be scannable unless they choose to apply full time encryption. Which may or may not happen.


If anyone has any information to add to this topic, please feel free to do so.

In summary, I THINK that ProVoice upgrades are coming. I don't yet have any confirmation of that.
Long term migration to P25 trunking is likely.

 

[SCPD]

Interesting

I don't know the specifics yet, but there will be some upgrades coming to the Brevard County EDACS public safety trunked system very shortly.

This has been personally confirmed to me by officers in two separate police departments although neither of them knew the specifics.

I have heard radio techs doing channel by channel audio checks in ProVoice mode.

My GUESS...and this is ONLY a guess...is that some departments will be at least making greater use of ProVoice.

At this stage in the game this is a reasonable presumption as the majority of the P7100s used by the various PDs and the Sheriff's department have the ProVoice option in them. (Same for the M7100 mobiles) So to upgrade to actually using ProVoice would only require reprogramming of the radios and NOT making a large capital expenditure.

Spending a lot of money on an EDACS system at this point in time would not be a wise financial decision
as Harris will discontinue support for EDACS in just a few short years.

However, Harris has a clearly defined migration plan to migrate EDACS customer to P25ip.

The migration plan is outline clearly in this document from Harris:

http://pspc.harris.com/media/ECR-7684A-EDACS to P25 Migration-page by page-small_tcm42-11728.pdf


In the short term, any presumed migration to ProVoice will make it harder for people to use a scanner to listen to the system and will temporarily increase the value of surplus EDACS radios that carry the ProVoice option (option no. 29).

In the long term, the system is probably going to transition to P25 and will then again be scannable unless they choose to apply full time encryption. Which may or may not happen.


If anyone has any information to add to this topic, please feel free to do so.

In summary, I THINK that ProVoice upgrades are coming. I don't yet have any confirmation of that.
Long term migration to P25 trunking is likely.

I did a Google search on the exact topic you covered and this is what I found:

http://www.brevardcounty.us/docs/emergency-management/p7300.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Does this mean they are 100% for sure upgrading??? No, it does not and what you stated seems to counter what everybody else around here is confirming, BCSO doesn't want nor will they switch to P25 as there have been a slew of citizen assists around here for the last two months.

Brevard County is a scanner friendly place.

Also, Brevard County is going through it's own problems with it's former clerk of court being arrested for bribery. So, I am going to say that I seriously doubt, based on what I have read, that they will go P25 at all. They may not have the funds to based on this latest scandal.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Frankly I think they'll HAVE to go to P25 in a couple of years, because Harris already announced that they will end support for EDACS in a few years.

As described in the migration document I linked, the upgrade to P25 can be done in stages. Brevard has been acquiring radios that are P25 capable (after flashing new features in) for some time now.

I think it'll happen eventually. They won't really have a choice when the system is no longer supported by Harris.
Do you think that DEC minicomputer that runs the EDACS host software is going to run forever? It belongs in a museum.
But as far as I know, (really, I DON'T know), they still use that dinosaur. I have no idea if the EDACS controller program was ever
migrated to something less primitive.

Why would the system technicians be checking out every channel for proper operation in ProVoice mode if there wasn't a need for ProVoice?

BCSO and Palm Bay PD both make limited use of ProVoice right now. The PB supervisor's talkgroup is ProVoice and so is the BCSO vice talkgroup. (The latter being a recent change.)

The article you linked to is only a spec sheet for the P5300/P5400 multi-mode radios that will eventually replace the P5100/P7100 radios,
nothing more. It doesn't reveal anything about upgrade or migration plans.

I believe that the county hosts copies of all the relevant spec sheets for the radio equipment that they use or are considering using,
as standard practice. I've seen other spec sheets on Harris equipment there before.

 

[SCPD]

yep

Frankly I think they'll HAVE to go to P25 in a couple of years, because Harris already announced that they will end support for EDACS in a few years.

As described in the migration document I linked, the upgrade to P25 can be done in stages. Brevard has been acquiring radios that are P25 capable (after flashing new features in) for some time now.

I think it'll happen eventually. They won't really have a choice when the system is no longer supported by Harris.
Do you think that DEC minicomputer that runs the EDACS host software is going to run forever? It belongs in a museum.
But as far as I know, (really, I DON'T know), they still use that dinosaur. I have no idea if the EDACS controller program was ever
migrated to something less primitive.

Why would the system technicians be checking out every channel for proper operation in ProVoice mode if there wasn't a need for ProVoice?

BCSO and Palm Bay PD both make limited use of ProVoice right now. The PB supervisor's talkgroup is ProVoice and so is the BCSO vice talkgroup. (The latter being a recent change.)

The article you linked to is only a spec sheet for the P5300/P5400 multi-mode radios that will eventually replace the P5100/P7100 radios,
nothing more. It doesn't reveal anything about upgrade or migration plans.

I believe that the county hosts copies of all the relevant spec sheets for the radio equipment that they use or are considering using,
as standard practice. I've seen other spec sheets on Harris equipment there before.

True, but right now, Brevard can't be bothered with all these "sales" pitches that they are doing for encryption these days. The radios on the spec sheet i linked do are not being bought.

Harris locally suggested them but that was before the local Harris buidlings jumped on the brevard TRS.

They have been testing provoice lately but provoice has been on this system since they switched to M/A com radios.

 

[ElroyJetson]

I have seen a number of P5300s in service with police in various cities. Indian Harbour Beach has some, the SO has some, and Satellite Beach is reportedly getting a batch of them very soon. Within weeks if not days from now.

The 7100s are starting to get old. I should know. I've bought retired ones from county auction that were in rough shape. A couple even rougher than usual, having been run over by fire trucks. (I repaired both of them, I just had to replace everything BUT the main board! )

The 7100s were also discontinued recently.

Simply because they lose radios to attrition, they must get new radios from time to time. The newer
ones are capable of new technologies so there's an upgrade path built right in.

Eventually, when the penetration of the P25-capable radios into the fleet is great enough, Harris will try to wow the county with a "reduced cost" P25 upgrade alternative based on the fact that most of their existing equipment is flash upgradable for less than the cost of buying all new radios.

I'm sure the county is in no great hurry to "upgrade" to a digital voice radio system that may or may not actually deliver better voice quality over extended range conditions. (Believe me, digital is NOT always better and does not always measure up to the hype!) I'm just glad that the county has a pretty friendly attitude toward its citizens that like to listen in. I do hope that attitude prevails through any future upgrades.

 

[SCPD]

I have seen a number of P5300s in service with police in various cities. Indian Harbour Beach has some, the SO has some, and Satellite Beach is reportedly getting a batch of them very soon. Within weeks if not days from now.

The 7100s are starting to get old. I should know. I've bought retired ones from county auction that were in rough shape. A couple even rougher than usual, having been run over by fire trucks. (I repaired both of them, I just had to replace everything BUT the main board! )

The 7100s were also discontinued recently.

Simply because they lose radios to attrition, they must get new radios from time to time. The newer
ones are capable of new technologies so there's an upgrade path built right in.

Eventually, when the penetration of the P25-capable radios into the fleet is great enough, Harris will try to wow the county with a "reduced cost" P25 upgrade alternative based on the fact that most of their existing equipment is flash upgradable for less than the cost of buying all new radios.

I'm sure the county is in no great hurry to "upgrade" to a digital voice radio system that may or may not actually deliver better voice quality over extended range conditions. (Believe me, digital is NOT always better and does not always measure up to the hype!) I'm just glad that the county has a pretty friendly attitude toward its citizens that like to listen in. I do hope that attitude prevails through any future upgrades.

Yes i know about the p5300's. However, i know some people who have some of the 7100's that are converted to non- association and set for the county's system to just "listen".

I want to do this but i can't find any 7100's to buy so i can do this. any suggestions? I already have RPM and about to get an updated copy.

 

[ElroyJetson]

I have some. PM me if interested.

 

[SCPD]

I have some. PM me if interested.

will do, have a few obligations first.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Spending a lot of money on an EDACS system at this point in time would not be a wise financial decision as Harris will discontinue support for EDACS in just a few short years.

From what I heard up here in Michigan, they will be phasing out ProVoice at the same time. Harris wants to concentrate on OpenSky and P25IP, with the latter of the two being used primarily for EDACS upgrades. This will affect a lot of EDACS users across the nation.

73's

Ron

 

[ElroyJetson]

OpenSky is a titanic mistake. Hopefully Harris won't really do that.

The smartest thing they can do with OpenSky is shut it down as quickly and quietly as possible.

When Harris bought the radio business from Tyco M/A-Com, they bought it all EXCEPTING, exclusively,
all business and obligations concerning the New York State OpenSky DISASTER.

Harris KNOWS the OpenSky tech is DEEPLY flawed for the application of public safety voice communications, and hopefully they will not be so foolish as to bet on the foundered horse in the race.

But if they do, in the long term that'll be good for Motorola as my belief is that today's OpenSky customer is tomorrow's willing Motorola buyer.

OpenSky originated with AMP Wireless Systems as an RF-based data network designed specifically to facilitate realtime tracking of packages for FedEx. In that application it works admirably. It was never designed at any fundamental level for voice traffic and the needs of public safety providers and attempting to use it for that purpose is a fundamentally flawed concept destined for heartache and failure.

It also makes NO sense to support a single vendor, fully proprietary system when we can all quite clearly see that the future is P25, at least until the time of enlightenment comes, at which point we will start to get Tetra systems in the US. Which is long overdue.

Tetra is what P25 HOPES it might grow up to be someday.

 

[SCPD]

OpenSky is a titanic mistake. Hopefully Harris won't really do that.

The smartest thing they can do with OpenSky is shut it down as quickly and quietly as possible.

When Harris bought the radio business from Tyco M/A-Com, they bought it all EXCEPTING, exclusively,
all business and obligations concerning the New York State OpenSky DISASTER.

Harris KNOWS the OpenSky tech is DEEPLY flawed for the application of public safety voice communications, and hopefully they will not be so foolish as to bet on the foundered horse in the race.

But if they do, in the long term that'll be good for Motorola as my belief is that today's OpenSky customer is tomorrow's willing Motorola buyer.

OpenSky originated with AMP Wireless Systems as an RF-based data network designed specifically to facilitate realtime tracking of packages for FedEx. In that application it works admirably. It was never designed at any fundamental level for voice traffic and the needs of public safety providers and attempting to use it for that purpose is a fundamentally flawed concept destined for heartache and failure.

It also makes NO sense to support a single vendor, fully proprietary system when we can all quite clearly see that the future is P25, at least until the time of enlightenment comes, at which point we will start to get Tetra systems in the US. Which is long overdue.

Tetra is what P25 HOPES it might grow up to be someday.

Tetra will be implemented in a few US spots from what I heard. Open sky better not come to Brevard after what happened down in WPB.

 

[jhal94]

at which point we will start to get Tetra systems in the US. Which is long overdue.

Tetra is what P25 HOPES it might grow up to be someday.

Blasphemy!
On a serious note, Harris is not going to continue investing in a product that makes Harris loose money. NY was a major disaster and the PA system just barely makes the cut.

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Harris came out with Open Scam 2. Did any fool buy it?
.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Harris came out with Open Scam 2. Did any fool buy it?
.

Oakland County, Mich. :roll:

73's

Ron

 

[ElroyJetson]

Some additional news concerning Brevard: Apparently the push is to upgrade the current equipment to be P25 ready before 2016, the time at which Harris will cease EDACS support. It seems almost certain that Brevard will be migrating to P25.

An officer I spoke to said that in the short term they will be going digital (ProVoice) which will leave out the scanner crowd. The more dedicated listeners will find ProVoice enabled surplus radios and be able to listen in.

He also said that when it does come to a P25 system upgrade, they will have encryption but not necessarily for all talkgroups. But that's years away and the final form of the system is far from certain at this point.

Given Brevard's historically scanner-friendly environment, I will speculate that they will encrypt some tactical talkgroups for critical situations but keep regular traffic in the clear. (Non-encrypted digital)

 

[AFP]

An officer I spoke to said that in the short term they will be going digital (ProVoice) which will leave out the scanner crowd. The more dedicated listeners will find ProVoice enabled surplus radios and be able to listen in.

How short term? And does this mean that they will be going to ProVoice on the fire channels as well?

Thanks.
Matt

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Is the sky falling yet? No one here knows what the county will do except the county.

Encryption is coming to your neighborhood however.

How short term? And does this mean that they will be going to ProVoice on the fire channels as well?

Thanks.
Matt

 

[ElroyJetson]

This is not a "sky is falling" situation, but the fact is that Harris will stop support for EDACS in 2016
and thus the county MUST have a system replacement option in place and working by that time.

The county has been weeding out all their non-P25 capable equipment and replacing it with P25-capable equipment.

I just bought some P7100s off ebay which are good radios with ProVoice. They're in great shape. They arrived with property stickers still on them....from Melbourne. They are the variant of the 7100 that can't do P25.

I've seen HUNDREDS of retired Brevard county radios recently. All of them share one specific feature: Not P25 capable.

ALL the radios they are retaining, or buying new, are P25 capable.

The writing is on the wall. Brevard WILL go to P25. It's just a matter of WHEN.

 

[rapidcharger]

If you asked me if there is anywhere on Earth that wouldn't encrypt it's dispatch, Brevard county would be the first place I'd think of. It's just not like anywhere else in Florida. At least in my observations.


(That's a compliment)

 

[ElroyJetson]

I, too, would be surprised if Brevard encrypted routine traffic.

I know for a fact that there is SOME encryption in use on the system now. Palm Bay uses encryption on at least two talkgroups. Staff and TAC-X, to be precise.

But for routine traffic, switching to encryption would be very surprising though certainly not impossible.

Harris, having its corporate headquarters and many facilities in Brevard County, really wants the Brevard system to be a showcase system and as a result of that Harris may quite possibly be generous to the county and offer features and upgrades for considerably less than pricebook prices.

I'd go so far as to guess that Harris Corporation is strongly influencing the County's radio people,
by exploiting the company's value to the county (major defense contractor employing many thousands of people in the county) and also by making very attractive special deals on features and upgrades.

Frankly, Harris could afford to upgrade Brevard's whole system to a state of the art Phase II P25 TDMA system with full-time AES-256 encryption, and foot the entire bill for it without charging the county a dime, and use the county's system as a technology demonstrator and developmental project.

Motorola has done the same thing in the past, I believe. Install a complete system for a large city at no cost, and use it to develop and test the technology. The city gets a free radio system and direct manufacturer's support for every aspect of it.