CDMs wired to CSI TP-154 tone panel...possible?

[eportel6607]

Hi guys,
Trying to connect a CSI TP-154 repeater community tone panel to two CDM 750 UHF radios. This is the first time I've attempted to connect a tone panel to a CDM series radio and I can't seem to get thing working right.
The tone panel (TP-154) requires connections that I'm hoping will be accessible from the 20 pin accessory connector.
The connections are as follows (on the rare of the TP-154):
TX Audio -> connected to Pin #2 of the transmitter radio
RX Audio -> connected to Pin 11 of the receiver radio
PTT -> connected to Pin #3 of the transmitter radio
Sub Tone -> connected to Pin #5 of the transmitter radio (used to inject the pl/dpl tone into the TXer)
RX COS -> connected to Pin #14 of the receiver radio
Gnd -> connected to pin #7 of both radios

I programmed the CDM receiver radio with the necessary frequency and carrier squelch and pin #14 as Carrier Squelch Detect. I also set in the Accessories tab the RX audio source to RX Flat audio rather than Mic All the functions of the receiver radio appear to be working correctly. I set pin# 14 as carrier detect (carrier squelch) rather than PL/DPL carrier detect because the tone panel should be doing the decoding. This radio seems to be working fine. The tone panel is detecting the DPL that I'm encoding with a mobile radio and making the transmitter radio transmit.

The transmitter radio has been programmed to the best of what I can think might work for this application.
The tone panel should be passing the audio from the receiver out of the terminal marked "TX Audio" and I patched that into pin #2 on the CDM because this is marked as "mic audio in" (according to this data: HT750/1250/1550/PRO5150/7150/9150/GP320/340/360/380/ GP318/338/GP640/680/1280/CDM750/CDM1250/CDM1550,etc.) . There is no audio at all being passed to the transmitter radio from the tone panel. So I'm not quite sure if this connected correctly but I also tried connecting this "TX Audio" to pin #5 "TX Audio input" and still no audio. Now I'm hoping that the "Sub Tone" can be connected to inject the sub tone into the transmitter and I think that works as it's connected to pin #5 on the transmitter and I can hear the DPL tone whur sound, so I think this is the correct location for this connection.

Anybody know of any documentation of proper configuration of two CDMs connected to a community tone panel repeater controller?

Or do have to have make some connections inside the radio?

When using this tone panel controller with a Maxtrac (5 pin logic board) some of these connections needed to made inside the radio.
Thanks for any help guys
Chris

 

[hitechRadio]

I would verify the audio is coming out of the TP-154.
I had a couple of these , and loved them.

Sounds like receiver is hooked up correct is the 154 detecting DTMF?

 

[ramal121]

Do you have your PTT audio source set as "Ext Mic & Flat TX"? This should combine audio from both pin 2 and pin 5 from a single PTT input.

 

[eportel6607]

I would verify the audio is coming out of the TP-154.
I had a couple of these , and loved them.

Sounds like receiver is hooked up correct is the 154 detecting DTMF?

Thanks guys, No there is no DTMF tones being detected on the 154.
I also noticed that when I program the Receiver radio it has a long tone after the programming has been finished and the Transmitter radio doesn't do this.
So although the recever radio is passing on the DPL and it's being decoded by the TP-154, there is no mic audio getting to the 154.

 

[eportel6607]

Do you have your PTT audio source set as "Ext Mic & Flat TX"? This should combine audio from both pin 2 and pin 5 from a single PTT input.

Thanks. I just checked and the PTT Audio Source was set to Flat not to both. I switched them both (both radios) to what you suggested but nothing so far.

 

[eportel6607]

Don't get me wrong guys; I could make the radios encode and decode the PL but it kind of defeats the purpose of using a tone panel in the first place. So it appears there is mic audio getting to the tp-154...just the DPL "audio"

 

[eportel6607]

Ok I now have DTMF detect..but no audio. So this confirms that the RXer radio is passing audio to the controller and I know the SubTone from the controller to the TXer radio is also working because the squelch opens correctly on a seperate radio that I'm using for testing. So this means that the audio is getting to the controller, it's just not getting to the TXer radio? I connect a lot of controllers to radios before never ran into this before. I'm guessing it's a configuration in the TX radio?

 

[ramal121]

Thanks. I just checked and the PTT Audio Source was set to Flat not to both. I switched them both (both radios) to what you suggested but nothing so far.

Well I have never put a community panel on a pair of CDMs before, but somehow this should be possible.

I second hightechradio and sniff your voice audio, you should have at least 100mV rms or better into the mic input. Check the repeat level pot in the controller.

Try and change your PTT to "Data PTT" and then change Data PTT Audio Source to include both and see if that works. Disclaimer in the help file says combining the two TX audio sources is not possible with earlier firmware versions. I don't know what the minimum version you would need to accomplish this. Are these really old CDMs?

My headache was with MTR2000 repeaters. They have only one TX audio input and to put a community panel on them you have to mix the voice and low speed data externally before the input. Luckily Zetron has a plug and play thingamabob to accomplish this. I don't want to make this any harder for you but you may have to roll your own mixer and feed it into the single flat TX input.

 

[eportel6607]

Ok now with the PTT audio source set "Ext Mic & Flat TX I can now hear the audio from the courtesy tone on the TP-154. I can also hear very faint audio from the mic I'm talking in and I also can hear faint DTMF tones when I transmit that as well. The volumne on my test radio that I'm listening to is cranked all the way up, yet the audio leve is very low. It appears this is a compond problem with settings in both radios and the TP-154. Still not solved but I'm closer than I ever had been previously

 

[eportel6607]

On the back of the TP-154 I jumped the "RX Audio" (pin 11 on the RXer radio) with "TX Audio" (pin #2 on the TXer radio) and the audio is loud but a bit scratchy. When I let go of the PTT there is squelch noise during hang time and no courtesy tone can be herd. I think it's time to walk away for now. It's got to be something really simple that I'm missing.

 

[eportel6607]

Well I have never put a community panel on a pair of CDMs before, but somehow this should be possible.

I second hightechradio and sniff your voice audio, you should have at least 100mV rms or better into the mic input. Check the repeat level pot in the controller.

Try and change your PTT to "Data PTT" and then change Data PTT Audio Source to include both and see if that works. Disclaimer in the help file says combining the two TX audio sources is not possible with earlier firmware versions. I don't know what the minimum version you would need to accomplish this. Are these really old CDMs?

My headache was with MTR2000 repeaters. They have only one TX audio input and to put a community panel on them you have to mix the voice and low speed data externally before the input. Luckily Zetron has a plug and play thingamabob to accomplish this. I don't want to make this any harder for you but you may have to roll your own mixer and feed it into the single flat TX input.

Oh boy. I see. Thanks for your input. The truth is I really don't need the tone panel, just a basic controller w/ adjustable hang time (a second is more than enough) and a quick, zero latency turn around. No Kurchunk delay. I was only using theTP-154 because I have four of them. I could could make the radios do the PL decoding and encoding but it seems like a waste. I don't think I've seen anybody using tone panels with CDMs.

 

[ramal121]

I think it's time to walk away for now.

With this stuff, sometimes that's best. Grab a coffee, a beer, or maybe one of those green smoothies that look like pond scum. Whatever it takes to settle your wits.

Now, back to things. Sounds like you have confirmed you are transmitting PL/DPL as it opens the receiver on your test radio. Jumping pins 11 and 2, although not the way you'd want to ideally run the thing, has confirmed loud audio on TX. This is good as the radios seem to be set up correctly. Lets set them aside and look at the controller.

For now lets concentrate on just getting somewhat of a normal voice out on transmit. Although I have had repeaters with this controller on them I have never set one up from scratch. On the flip side, I have used other CSI products and have interfaced them to different types of radios. They seem to be consistent in their set up and alignment. I took a peek at the manual for the 154 and it seems pretty straight forward.

I don't know what your situation is, but I have a bench full of whizbang test gear (which sometimes doesn't help as indicated by the clumps of hair on the floor). Right now you should have a decent digital voltmeter that reads AC and can use it properly (just by these few posts I'm trying to gauge your level of expertise so forgive me if I seem to be talking down my nose).

Per CSI, the first thing you want to do is set the RX input to the controller called the "preamp". They want you to send (from your test radio) an on-frequency carrier with a 100Hz PL tone. You would put the AC voltmeter on TP-1 (and ground) and adjust P1 to show 1 volt RMS. You are measuring just the PL tone, any background noise, movement, scratch or whatever on your transmit will throw off this reading. Alternately, you can from your test radio send a constant DTMF tone and adjust TP-1 to about 370 mV RMS. This will set the correct level into the controller so the decoders work properly.

The next step is to set the audio level for voice that goes to the transmit radio. This is done with P3. You should have something that will show transmit deviation. Barring that, put your voltmeter on the TX audio ouput of the controller. Again send a constant DTMF tone from your test radio. Adjust P3 to read about 125mV on your meter.

These are the only two adjustments there are for voice level and should get you into the ballpark. To make other adjustments they list you'll really need a service monitor or something along those lines to get things down to specs.

Good luck.

 

[eportel6607]

Thanks Randy for your efforts. I do understand what your saying and I do have a VOM. I will try that tomorrow. I also have recently got a HP Service Monitor/Spectrum Analyzer w/tracking generator but at this point have no clue what I'm doing with it. I have the manual now for the TP-154 and see the section your talking about. I will attempt to get things up and running tomorrow. I sent you a PM to explain my situation better as it's much too involved to explain in a normal post.

I'm hearing the controllers courtesy tone...but like everything else the output level is low. I'm monitoring the output of the repeater on a Maxtrac. I have the volume all the way up and the courtesy is fairly quite despite the fact that the pot in the controller for this tone is all the way up.
I had these controller set up on a Maxtrac (5 pin logic board) system but had them wired through a modified mic port (added COR to pin 2) and the discrim. and injection points inside the radio...kind of messy.
I'll get back to you tomorrow. Hopefully there will be no smoke emitting out of any equipment.
Thanks,
chris

 

[hitechRadio]

The TP-154 will work great on CDM's I have personally set up several. One of my favorite controllers, right up there with the Zetron version.
Assuming nothing is wrong with the CDM's. (Did you try swapping TX'er and RX'er odds are slim both would have an issue)

So again assuming both CDM's are good, your adjustments/problem will be in the 154, as once the CDM's are setup correctly in programming, there is nothing else to adjust in them.

It is possible there is a problem with the 154 may have lost an audio amp, there should be a schematic in the manual you have. and test it. Genrate a test tone and follow along in the schematic with an O-Scope (your HP may have one) and look for gain at each stage. When thers no gain, thers your problem.

Follow the directions in the TP154 for adjustment as ramal121 mentioned.

There should be some basic option instructions on your service monitor on the net, youtube Or start another thread for help on you HPsm.

 

[eportel6607]

The TP-154 will work great on CDM's I have personally set up several. One of my favorite controllers, right up there with the Zetron version.
Assuming nothing is wrong with the CDM's. (Did you try swapping TX'er and RX'er odds are slim both would have an issue)

So again assuming both CDM's are good, your adjustments/problem will be in the 154, as once the CDM's are setup correctly in programming, there is nothing else to adjust in them.

It is possible there is a problem with the 154 may have lost an audio amp, there should be a schematic in the manual you have. and test it.

Follow the directions in the TP154 for adjustment as ramal121 mentioned.

There should be some basic option instructions on your service monitor on the net, youtube Or start another thread for help on you HPsm.

Thanks. I have four of these 154s. I had tried two but that was before I discovered some setting issues with one of the CDM.
It's good to hear that the radios will do the tone panel. I wasn't so sure at first. I did try swapping the CDMs and I jumped the output of one with the input of the other and hear loud audio. The TP-154 is decoding DTMF well.
I'll try another TP-154.

I tried to do the first test on the list in the manual. It indicates I should have 1V on VOM when measuring "TP1" on the PC board in the controller. I get nothing at all at this test point using a VOM...either in DC or AC mode. I used an oscilloscope and I can get the 3 volts peak to peak. So does the "Peak to Peak" mean 3 volts above and 3 volts below (AC signal) or does it mean 3 volts total (1.5V above and 1.5V below)?
Why would I get a reading on the OS and not the VOM?
Also on the CDMs I read that the mic gain on the acc. port needs to be brought way down from 28.5db to 3.0. I assume this is on the TX radio. I make this change and I don't notice any difference what so ever. Have you also had to bring this input down in gain on your CDM repeaters?
Also I have the 45watt model UHF low split CDMs. I have the power set to 20 watts as I don't see a way to get it any lower. My question to you is cooling. Are you simply using a fan attached to the heat sink or is there something better for this application?
Thanks,
Chris

 

[hitechRadio]

3 volts P2P will be about 1volt RMS. You will probably need a true RMS DVM. Your O-scope should work fine though.

TP1 is the preamp for the receiver, Sounds like that is adjusted correctly, especially if it is detecting DTMF.

Put your O-scope on the TX audio output and see what level your audio is. P3 is you Tx audio adjustment. Also check that JP2 is set in the correct position.

If you are still getting low audio, check pin 13 of U3 this is the input to the amp. There is also an audio switch U18 check pin 1 and pin 2. Pin 1 is connected to the wiper of P3 TX Audio Pot. Pin 2 is the output.

You can also while you have your probe at pin 1 on U18 or The wiper of P3. Adjust P3 up and down, you should see a change of out put level.

Remember to send audio to the receiver while testing, I would just use a 1k tone.

Are your radios narrow or wide band?



I would also perform a complete reset of the TP-154 by installing JP-6 , then power the unit up what for the display to show || || || || then Remove JP-6. Unit should be at factory defaults.

As far as cooling you can use a fan on the Transmitter, I always used the Motorola GR500 case, it has built in supply and fan. Can be found on ebay pretty cheap sometimes.

 

[eportel6607]

3 volts P2P will be about 1volt RMS. You will probably need a true RMS DVM. Your O-scope should work fine though.

TP1 is the preamp for the receiver, Sounds like that is adjusted correctly, especially if it is detecting DTMF.

Put your O-scope on the TX audio output and see what level your audio is. P3 is you Tx audio adjustment. Also check that JP2 is set in the correct position.

If you are still getting low audio, check pin 13 of U3 this is the input to the amp. There is also an audio switch U18 check pin 1 and pin 2. Pin 1 is connected to the wiper of P3 TX Audio Pot. Pin 2 is the output.

You can also while you have your probe at pin 1 on U18 or The wiper of P3. Adjust P3 up and down, you should see a change of out put level.

Remember to send audio to the receiver while testing, I would just use a 1k tone.

Are your radios narrow or wide band?



I would also perform a complete reset of the TP-154 by installing JP-6 , then power the unit up what for the display to show || || || || then Remove JP-6. Unit should be at factory defaults.

As far as cooling you can use a fan on the Transmitter, I always used the Motorola GR500 case, it has built in supply and fan. Can be found on ebay pretty cheap sometimes.

Thanks.
I got the audio to be correct now although I'm not totally sure what allowed this to happen. It appears like it was a compound problem. Settings in the radio were correct at one time but the controller wasn't, then the settings int he controller was correct but I have changed programming the radio and the problem persisted due my lack of method to narrow down the issue.
Please forgive my ignorance to this stuff. I need to understand this and learn it because I'm going to be doing a lot of this sort of thing.
In regards to deviation levels the "3v P2P" means Peak to Peak is that correct? So that means if I calibrated my OS so that no signal is on the center reference line then I connect the signal do I adjust so that the voltage is 3 volts above this reference line AND below the line or am I looking for 1.5 volts above and below the line, equaling 3 volts total? I had my OS set to the 5volt scale and something like 1ms in terms of time frame. Am I in the ballpark with this?
Chris

 

[hitechRadio]

Sorry, Yes P2P is Peak to Peak.

If you need 3v P2P, you need 1.5 volts above and below the line.

 

[hitechRadio]

Check this guy out, he has very good videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0dGb_J05EQ

 

[eportel6607]

Check this guy out, he has very good videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0dGb_J05EQ

Thanks very much. Since my last post I have actually been checking out this guys videos and have learned a lot.

Thanks again,
Chris