Yaesu: crossband on a 8800 setup

[davecason]

Hi Gang,

I'm going to try my first attempt at crossbanding and I have a few questions. I know the pros here can answer a few newbie questions.

When programing an 8800 do you treat each side of thee radio as a separate entity so to speak?

So if I have a repeater like VE6GAb in on one side with it being: 147.075 + and 100.0 tone, so that's on side A of the unit for fun lets say its on the left. So do I replicate the same settings on the B side in 70 cm?

When putting in the HT do you do the exact same thing? For an HT in this case my VX-3R I'll run on 422.025 but do I set up the offset and also the tone?

The tone makes sense so when it hit the 8800 it open the repeater but I'm not sure about the offset do you run that as well so really there are 4 channels for duplex or can you run it simplex?

That's where I'm lost but I'm sure someone here can explain it better. I read somewhere about using the HT in simplex or going with an offset for duplex but I just wanted to confirm that.

Cheers'
Dave

 

[rapidcharger]

Hi Gang,

I'm going to try my first attempt at crossbanding and I have a few questions. I know the pros here can answer a few newbie questions.
)))

you can always practice first with a couple of simplex frequencies.

((When programing an 8800 do you treat each side of thee radio as a separate entity so to speak?)))

Yes.
More on that in a bit.

(((So if I have a repeater like VE6GAb in on one side with it being: 147.075 + and 100.0 tone, so that's on side A of the unit for fun lets say its on the left. So do I replicate the same settings on the B side in 70 cm? )))

Not necessary.
More on that in a bit.

(((When putting in the HT do you do the exact same thing? For an HT in this case my VX-3R I'll run on 422.025 but do I set up the offset and also the tone? )))

no. No offset, the tone is optional but recommended. More on that in.... you guessed it... a bit!

(((


That's where I'm lost but I'm sure someone here can explain it better.
)))

Explaining things better is one of my special skills so hopefully I don't let you down.

If what you're trying to do is use an HT to access a distant repeater and use the 8800 to repeat your signal for some extra oomph, here's how you would set it up.

Side A: 147.047+, PL 100 (Just as you would if you were using the 8800 by itself)
Side B: 422.025 no offset because it's simplex but lets say you use PL 123 (can be anything you want)

Then in your HT, you program a channel for 422.025 simplex, no offset with PL 123.

When you TX on your HT, the signal is received by side b of the 8800 and then simultaneously keys up side A of the 8800.
When it receives a signal from the repeater on side A, it will simultaneously key up on side B of the 8800, and you will hear that repeated signal on your HT.

Does that make more sense now?


Just a little side note, you might want to check to see if the 422 is authorized for FM phone. In my country (us) it isn't.

 

[davecason]

AH ! OK, thansk that explains exactly what I was looking for !

So that was sort of my main question, I was reading about someone who said they were going to duplex on an HT which I didn't get......

Hi rapidcharger,

So it IS what I thought, setup one side on the 2M band as normal and set up the other side with the 70 cm you want to use as a regular simplex. BTW - that was miss typing so it will be: 442.025 (grin)

Side A: 147.047+, PL 100
Side B: 442.025 no offset PL 100

Does it matter if I ran the same tone on the 70 cm band as well?
I'm going to assume that its only ENC on the tone too ! (grin)

Thanks for the answer BTW its nice to have some clarity!

Cheers'
Dave

 

[kayn1n32008]

Hi Gang,



I'm going to try my first attempt at crossbanding and I have a few questions. I know the pros here can answer a few newbie questions.



When programing an 8800 do you treat each side of thee radio as a separate entity so to speak?

Yes. One side will be for Tx/RX from your portable, the other side will be Tx/Rx from the repeater you wish to talk through.

So if I have a repeater like VE6GAb in on one side with it being: 147.075 + and 100.0 tone, so that's on side A of the unit for fun lets say its on the left. So do I replicate the same settings on the B side in 70 cm?

In your example, the (example)left side of your radio would be set up to Tx/RX to the VHF VE6GAB repeater. It should be programmed as if you were using the radio mic to talk through it.

The (example) right side of your radio should be set up to Tx/Rx on a simplex frequency, in this example I would use 446.150MHz (anything BUT 446.000MHz) using Tx&Rx CTCSS tone of 100.0(or what ever CTCSS tone you want, but make sure it is on both Tx&Rx)

When putting in the HT do you do the exact same thing?

No. On your portable radio you want to program it to Tx&Rx on the simplex frequency you set for the right side of your radio.

For an HT in this case my VX-3R I'll run on 422.025 but do I set up the offset and also the tone?

422.025MHz is NOT a valid amatuer radio frequency in Canada.

I usually use a Simplex frequency to transmit through a crossband repeater, and I ALWAYS use CTCSS on both Transmit and receive. This reduces the likely hood of noise causing the radio to lock up in transmit.

The tone makes sense so when it hit the 8800 it open the repeater but I'm not sure about the offset do you run that as well so really there are 4 channels for duplex or can you run it simplex?

I NEVER run split frequencies between my portable and my crossband repeater(my TM-V71a does cross band repeat)

That's where I'm lost but I'm sure someone here can explain it better. I read somewhere about using the HT in simplex or going with an offset for duplex but I just wanted to confirm that.

You can run split frequencies between your crossband repeater and your portable radio, but I never do.

Cheers'

Dave

Hope that helps


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[davecason]

Yep, I think I got it !! (grin)

Hi Kayn,

"Yes. One side will be for Tx/RX from your portable, the other side will be Tx/Rx from the repeater you wish to talk through."

Yep, that part I got ....... its just odd questions about the HT side.

Side A is just setup as regular repeater
Side B is setup on the right legal freq (a mis-type) so it is going to be on 442.025 in simplex. (grin)

So you DO say to run the tones on both sides - cool! Can you explain the advantage of that, the lock up part is a bit unclear but I like that idea. Like I asked before, it's moot as to what tones (100.0 or 123.0 or whatever) you run right but you say run them on both sides.

Also, I see that you never run splits on a crossband - see that makes sense to me as well so what I read before was right in that it can be done, how come you don't?

Thanks for the reply too !

Cheers'
Dave

 

[kayn1n32008]

Davecason, if you are going to use 70cm you should do it in the simplex portion of the band, between 446.0250-446.9750. It is really a best practice not to use a potential repeater output frequency.

The advantage of running PLP on both is that if there is local noise, the crossband repeater will not lock up, if it does, you will have to go to it and shut it down. Using PL reduces the chance of it locking up. Also run as low a power as possible. If you can keep the portable side to 5w. The radio will burn up if you use high power and talk for extended periods of time. If possible try and run 5w on both VHF a and UHF.


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[rapidcharger]

So you DO say to run the tones on both sides - cool! Can you explain the advantage of that, the lock up part is a bit unclear but I like that idea. )))

What Kayn means is that potential noise or other transmissions on the same freq can key up your crossband repeater. Possibly for long periods of time- long enough to time it out or time out the repeater or tie up the repeater.

(((Also, I see that you never run splits on a crossband - see that makes sense to me as well so what I read before was right in that it can be done, how come you don't?)))

You CAN if you really wanted to. There just isn't usually any point to doing that. You would have to set your HT up with the reverse offset.

Example
8800 side B
RX 446.025
TX 441.025

HT
TX 446.025
RX 441.025

Another thing you might be interested in doing is something called "Locked band repeat" which looks like this.

8800 Side A
RX 147.675 (squelch closed all the way)
TX 147.675

8800 Side B
RX 446.025
TX 446.025

HT
TX: 446.025
RX: 446.025 or if you have a dual bander, 147.075

What this essentially does is take your HT's signal and throws it father but listens on the repeater's output. It does not repeat the repeater's signal onto the HT's 446.025 frequency.

Why is this useful? Well, you cannot transmit anything on crossband repeaters until the other side drops out completely. So if the repeater has a long hang time, you'll have to wait for it to stop retransmitting before you can key up. If people don't leave big enough gaps for you to get in, you will not be able to join the qso.

If your HT is a dualbander, then great, you can listen on the 2 meter repeater's output directly on the HT. If not, you would have to have another radio to listen to it on.

Some radios automatically put the radio into this mode if you do not want it to retransmit the received audio from the repeater. There might be a menu setting for that. Kenwood calls it locked band, but Yaesu might call it something different.

 

[mchart13]

Per what was already said here (rapidcharger)and what worked best for me for 6 yrs now on my 8800 & 8900...

Another thing you might be interested in doing is something called "Locked band repeat" which looks like this.

8800 Side A
RX 147.675 (squelch closed all the way) or wrong tone
TX 147.675 with tone and 20 W

8800 Side B
RX 446.025 with tone
TX 446.025 with tone and 5 W

Tone on B side does not need to match tone on A side heck you can use Digital tones if you want, as long your HT can match it.

HT
TX: 446.025 with tone match your B of your 8800
RX: if you have a dual bander, 147.075 with tone of your local repeater


The reason I use this setup is because both the 8800 and 8900 have a bad habit, out of the blue and not so often to lock up on xmit of UHF or VHF...
So if this happens you will hear it on your dualband since you will be listen both side of your 8800, last thing you want is lock up your local VHF repeater and not know because you are only listening UHF, I've been there �� and oooops that was an embarrassing phone call from club member . A walk back to the car, power off the 8800 radio and turn back on and turn xband back on fixed it.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Per what was already said here (rapidcharger)and what worked best for me for 6 yrs now on my 8800 & 8900...

Another thing you might be interested in doing is something called "Locked band repeat" which looks like this.

8800 Side A
RX 147.675 (squelch closed all the way) or wrong tone
TX 147.675 with tone and 20 W

8800 Side B
RX 446.025 with tone
TX 446.025 with tone and 5 W

Tone on B side does not need to match tone on A side heck you can use Digital tones if you want, as long your HT can match it.

HT
TX: 446.025 with tone match your B of your 8800
RX: if you have a dual bander, 147.075 with tone of your local repeater


The reason I use this setup is because both the 8800 and 8900 have a bad habit, out of the blue and not so often to lock up on xmit of UHF or VHF...
So if this happens you will hear it on your dualband since you will be listen both side of your 8800, last thing you want is lock up your local VHF repeater and not know because you are only listening UHF, I've been there í*½í¸³ and oooops that was an embarrassing phone call from club member . A walk back to the car, power off the 8800 radio and turn back on and turn xband back on fixed it.

The 8800 is not capable of locked band repeat... Also, if he is close to another repeater user, and the 8800 hears them on the input it will TX it out on the Uhf simplex frequency...


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[rapidcharger]

The 8800 is not capable of locked band repeat... Also, if he is close to another repeater user, and the 8800 hears them on the input it will TX it out on the Uhf simplex frequency...


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Locked band repeat can be simulated by simply using the repeater's input. And yes, as you pointed out a nearby station TXing on the input of the repeater can go back out over the other side but if you close the squelch up as much as you can, that's probably not going to happen too often.

Another big advantage to doing this, I don't know how I forgot, is the ID requirement. I know you don't have to ID as frequently up there but I'd imagine you'd still have to do it. If the repeater traffic is going out over UHF, you still need a way to ID that according to the rules we have here south of the border. If no traffic is going out on UHF then there is no need to ID.

 

[bill4long]

Another big advantage to doing this, I don't know how I forgot, is the ID requirement. I know you don't have to ID as frequently up there but I'd imagine you'd still have to do it. If the repeater traffic is going out over UHF, you still need a way to ID that according to the rules we have here south of the border. If no traffic is going out on UHF then there is no need to ID.

I do a lotta cross-banding. To ID "this side" of my crossbander (frequency that I'm using locally with my HT or whatever), I just switch "sides" temporarily, ID my station on the other frequency, which gets re-transmitted on "this side", and then switch back. That way both sides get properly ID'd. You can also just tell the person you're talking with to ID for you, for example, "this is KB6XYZ going thru W9XYZ/A", or whatever. Perfectly legal.

Also, when cross-banding to a repeater, you need to tell the people you talk to let the repeater completely drop, not just wait for the courtesy tone, or else you will never be able to key up a transmission from you to them. Of course, if you are close enough to the repeater you are working, you can make it so the 8800 only crossband repeats in one direction, and just listen to the output of the repeater you are working. I've done this and it works fine and avoids the repeater drop requirement.

Enjoy

 

[robertmac]

I know my comments here are a little late. I believe the OP posted this just before working a car rally this past Saturday. But for others that might read this, don't wait till the last minute to try cross band repeat. I would say the best time to do this would be with someone else a week or more before working an event. I know for myself, I tried this on various nets well before working an special events. This gives one time to correct or find things that work better. Doing it for the first time during an event can lead to disaster, especially from a lock up transmit. Or not being aware of repeater inputs in the area. I am not saying this happened here, but has happened at various times over the years.

 

[rapidcharger]

I do a lotta cross-banding. To ID "this side" of my crossbander (frequency that I'm using locally with my HT or whatever), I just switch "sides" temporarily, ID my station on the other frequency, which gets re-transmitted on "this side", and then switch back. That way both sides get properly ID'd. You can also just tell the person you're talking with to ID for you, for example, "this is KB6XYZ going thru W9XYZ/A", or whatever. Perfectly legal.

Also, when cross-banding to a repeater, you need to tell the people you talk to let the repeater completely drop, not just wait for the courtesy tone, or else you will never be able to key up a transmission from you to them. Of course, if you are close enough to the repeater you are working, you can make it so the 8800 only crossband repeats in one direction, and just listen to the output of the repeater you are working. I've done this and it works fine and avoids the repeater drop requirement.

Enjoy

Good tips.

I know my comments here are a little late. I believe the OP posted this just before working a car rally this past Saturday. But for others that might read this, don't wait till the last minute to try cross band repeat. I would say the best time to do this would be with someone else a week or more before working an event. I know for myself, I tried this on various nets well before working an special events. This gives one time to correct or find things that work better. Doing it for the first time during an event can lead to disaster, especially from a lock up transmit. Or not being aware of repeater inputs in the area. I am not saying this happened here, but has happened at various times over the years.

Great advice!

 

[mrweather]

You can also make the FT-8800 (and 8900 for that matter) a locked-band repeater by setting the transmit frequency on the UHF (link) side to something outside of the 70cm band.

This presumes the radio hasn't been MARS/CAP modded.

 

[davecason]

It was all good!

Hi Guys,

Yep, the rally went off without a hitch and I did have an elmer look things over before we went live that day, that was part of the plan from the start, but robertmac is right ..... I just wanted to learn how to do it before I went out there, hence the post.

So the main reason to use a tone on the UHF side is just to prevent lockup - we did use 123.0 on the HT's just as an FYI. So we just setup the 8800's as we talked about and had the 2m side setup for the local repeater as normal.

Once we put the 8800's in to X-band it was all smooth sailing and everything was happy and we did have both units down as low as possible - 5W.

Cheers'
Dave