CT State System Setup

[loumaag]

[Mod Edit: This quote is from the original post in the Scanning Forum so that this topic makes sense from the start after moving to the CT Forum.]

I have the Connecticut State Police setup in my 396. This results in 15 Systems that use the same identical Group of 76 TGID's. That's 1140 Channel entries which seems redundant, not to mention causes reading/writing the scanner to take much longer.

Would it be possible (in a future firmware) to create "virtual" Groups (much like Windows shortcuts) that could be linked to from Systems? That way, you'd only need to create a Group once, but be able to use it in multiple systems.

I imagine if this worked for Groups, it could probably be done for Channels as well.

As a benefit to this approach, there would be more overall memory available to the user.

I understand there may be technical limitations to this, but I'm curious if it's something that could be done.
__________________
Mark
BCD396T · BC246T · BC92XLT

I realize that CT is a smaller state, but still I can't imagine that you can hear all sites from any location. Could you not take a look at it geograpically and reduce the number of systsems so that you only listen to the sites that you can possible hear at one time. I think with a little examination, you could probably reduce that number to 3 or 4 sytems and not lose anything by combing sites into one system. For example, and this is just by looking at the frequencies used, Fairfield County (South) and Windham County can obviously be in the same system, they use the exact same frequencies so they can't be close enough to each other or they would interfer.

This does not alter the need for "virtual" talk groups, that is a great idea, but in the meantime, this might cause you less eye strain. :lol:

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

I realize that CT is a smaller state

Size isn't everything!

I can't imagine that you can hear all sites from any location.

But I still want to be able to listen as I travel around the state. :wink:

Plus, there's multiple transmission sites for each frequency scattered around the state. In addition, the TG's contain a lot of overlap. For example, I routinely hear Central District ID's on the Fairfield (North) site and Western District on Middlesex/New Haven. My house is within 4-10 miles of at least 3 different physical sites that contain the majority of the frequencies (at least based on info from the FCC database).

Could you not take a look at it geograpically and reduce the number of systsems so that you only listen to the sites that you can possible hear at one time. I think with a little examination, you could probably reduce that number to 3 or 4 sytems and not lose anything by combing sites into one system.

There's only 2 sets of duplicate sites: the ones you pointed out plus Litchfield (North) and Bradley Int'l Airport. That still leaves 14 sites, each needing a seperate system. From all the information I've accumulated, this is the best approach to CSP.

Of course, without the need or desire for alpha tags, I could just use ID Search mode and not have any Groups!

This does not alter the need for "virtual" talk groups, that is a great idea

That was the intent. While CSP may not be the best example and I really don't know if this same thing happens with many other systems, the concept of virtual Groups seems like a good thing.

 

[loumaag]

There's only 2 sets of duplicate sites: the ones you pointed out plus Litchfield (North) and Bradley Int'l Airport. That still leaves 14 sites, each needing a seperate system. From all the information I've accumulated, this is the best approach to CSP.

Yes, but remember I picked that one out by just glancing at the frequency list. What I mean is if you are in the SW corner of the state, can you hear the site that is in the NE corner of the state? If not they can be in the same system since they will never be where you can hear both of them at the same time. The idea is if you are scanning 15 systems right now then I assume it is stopping of all 15 to check for traffic. If not then you can reduce the number by looking at it geographically. I am pretty sure that you probably are not within hearing distance of more than 3 or 4 sites at any one time, so it stands to reason (providing you know the geography) that you can combine all of the sites into 3 or 4 systems.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

What I mean is if you are in the SW corner of the state, can you hear the site that is in the NE corner of the state?

Yes. As I said, there are multiple physical locations where many of the frequencies transmit from. They're not geographically located to match the site names, and there's plenty of overlap.

The idea is if you are scanning 15 systems right now then I assume it is stopping of all 15 to check for traffic. If not then you can reduce the number by looking at it geographically.

That's why Uniden gave us System Quick Keys! :wink: If I want, I can (and do) disable the SQK's to reduce the number of Systems that get scanned.

I am pretty sure that you probably are not within hearing distance of more than 3 or 4 sites at any one time, so it stands to reason (providing you know the geography) that you can combine all of the sites into 3 or 4 systems.

I routinely hear "local" TGID's (those that should be geographically close to me) under Systems that aren't.

Maybe you could move to Connecticut, setup the CSP for yourself, and then tell me how to do it.

None of this really matters to the point of my orginal post... even if it's 2 Systems, virtual Groups and Channels make sense to me.

 

[loumaag]

I am pretty sure that you probably are not within hearing distance of more than 3 or 4 sites at any one time, so it stands to reason (providing you know the geography) that you can combine all of the sites into 3 or 4 systems

I routinely hear "local" TGID's (those that should be geographically close to me) under Systems that aren't.

Talk groups appearing on any site is not relevant to the point I am making. It makes no difference whatsoever where TG's appear. That is a result of affiliations and/or system programming, it has nothing to do with individual sites. I am referring only to the site mapping. Properly done, you can have all of the systems on one system quick key and as you move around the state you will be able to hear whatever is being broadcast within range of where you are without you worrying about what site is active, as the transition will be seamless and your maintenance problem will be reduced by 75% to 80%. But, if you want to push buttons on 15 seperate systems and quick keys and maintain 15 seperate systems, go right ahead.

None of this really matters to the point of my orginal post... even if it's 2 Systems, virtual Groups and Channels make sense to me.

No arguement on this groups (talk groups) point (not sure what you meant by channels); however, that would not change my setup of frequencies one wit. They would still be combined into 3 or 4 systems under one system quick key.

 

[Al42]

No arguement on this groups (talk groups) point (not sure what you meant by channels);

Since TGs go into "channels", maybe a way to enter a list of channels (really TGs) that a system could point to, so that we can enter multiple systems but only take up 1 memory slot for each TG, rather than 1 slot for each TG on each system, which can get expensive (memory-wise) very quickly.

 

[loumaag]

Since TGs go into "channels", maybe a way to enter a list of channels (really TGs) that a system could point to, so that we can enter multiple systems but only take up 1 memory slot for each TG, rather than 1 slot for each TG on each system, which can get expensive (memory-wise) very quickly.

Absolutely! I agree that a single set of Channels (TG's) for multiple assigned systems is a great idea and would benefit both in memory usage and maintenance, especially on networked EDACS systems since they must be in seperate systems per site (with some exceptions) as opposed to Moto systems that can actually work acceptably in one no matter what size they are. (Think RACOM or the LCRA in TX)

 

[AZScanner]

Since they are motorola type II you don't have to adhere to a specific LCN, in fact you don't need to enter the voice frequencies at all - your 396 won't even look at them. You can therefore stuff all the CC's from all 15 sites into one system and only have to maintain one set of talkgroups.

Not saying you don't have a good idea though. I'm sure the guys monitoring Riverside County CA feel your pain. ;-) But you don't have to store all 15 sites seperately like they do.

Hope that helps,
-AZ

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

You can therefore stuff all the CC's from all 15 sites into one system and only have to maintain one set of talkgroups.

I thought that the 396 will only stop on the FIRST active CC and ignore the rest until the next time the system is scanned. This somewhat defeats the purpose of being able to listen to different sites, doesn't it?

 

[Al42]

I thought that the 396 will only stop on the FIRST active CC and ignore the rest until the next time the system is scanned. This somewhat defeats the purpose of being able to listen to different sites, doesn't it?

If you can hear them from 1 location, absolutely. It only works if you can only hear a single radio location from each of your locations (or don't care about the other ones). Like being able to keep monitoring the multi-site TRS as you drive from one end of the state to the other.

 

[loumaag]

I thought that the 396 will only stop on the FIRST active CC and ignore the rest until the next time the system is scanned. This somewhat defeats the purpose of being able to listen to different sites, doesn't it?

If you can hear them from 1 location, absolutely. It only works if you can only hear a single radio location from each of your locations (or don't care about the other ones). Like being able to keep monitoring the multi-site TRS as you drive from one end of the state to the other.

Which is why I tried to explain earlier in this thread to consolidate the systems geographically so that the 3 or 4 sites you can hear from any single location are in one of the 3 or 4 systems and that adjacent sites are not in the same system.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

consolidate the systems geographically

Not to drag this out any further, but that's not as easy as you seem to think it should be, at least based on the details I've accumulated concerning CSP.

As Al42 said:

It only works if you can only hear a single radio location from each of your locations (or don't care about the other ones).

I can hear multiple sites from here at home and I do care about those that aren't geographically close to me.

For example, "Site 001: Fairfield County (South)" (which is in the southwest corner of the state) is transmitted from 12 different physical locations scattered around the entire state. While it shares the same frequencies as Site 006: Windham County (northeast corner), the primary and alternate CC's are different. If both are combined in one system as you suggest, there's a chance (however slight it may be) that some activity will be missed.

With the exception of 3 sites in the system, there's anywhere from 9 to 12 physical transmission points for each site and they're not all geographically close to those sites. I just don't see how it can be pruned down to less than 12 actual Systems in the 396 based on how the scanner handles CC's.

Maybe I just don't understand enough about trunked systems and my ignorance is showing here, but I'm only going by what others have advised is the best way to handle CSP. Regardless of what it is, even if I could get it down to 3 or 4 Systems, there's still enough TG duplication to warrant the desire for virtual Groups (the real point of this thread).

 

[b52hbuff]

There's an easier way to acheive what you want, and it has been discussed before...

Simply allow the entry of multiple control channels and devise a mechanism to tell the radio how long to monitor each one. Think of the 'Pro-96 multi-site' bug...


...I forgot to add that this is an enhancement that we've discussed online with Paul on the 396 YahooGroups!, and isn't currently in the radio.

 

[loumaag]

For example, "Site 001: Fairfield County (South)" (which is in the southwest corner of the state) is transmitted from 12 different physical locations scattered around the entire state.

This is the problem, you don't understand how trunking works. Site 001: Fairfield County (South) is a single site. It is not anywhere else, it is only the one site.

With the exception of 3 sites in the system, there's anywhere from 9 to 12 physical transmission points for each site and they're not all geographically close to those sites. I just don't see how it can be pruned down to less than 12 actual Systems in the 396 based on how the scanner handles CC's.

There is only one transmission site per site, that is the definition of a site.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

There is only one transmission site per site, that is the definition of a site.

One physical site? To cover over 50 miles worth of I-95 (New York state line to Branford, CT)? C'mon, Lou... I value your opinion and knowledge, but I simply can't believe that is true. Plus, the FCC ULS Database shows the CC frequency (868.7500) located in 11 different towns around the state.
BROOKLYN
FRANKLIN
GREENWICH
NORTH GROSVENORDALE
REDDING
SHELTON
STERLING
STORRS
UNION
WEST HAVEN
WILTON

I've also been told that a CSP unit can travel from Greenwich (southwest corner) to Thompson (northeast corner) and never lose communication with its "home" site. I know Connecticut is a small state, but that just wouldn't be possible from "one physical transmission site", would it?

 

[WayneH]

It's common to have different conversations on different sites at the same time. How are you going to receive them both, say when the first one ends and the other is still going? The scanner just goes to the next system. The only way you can is by entering sites as independent systems. With SmartZone or P25 Trunking you just cannot put them all in one system and effectively monitor different sites. For me, it's usually 10+ seconds before the scanner gets back to the original system, even longer if there are multiple LTR systems to scan.

I agree on linking talkgroup groups. It's hard enough to keep talkgroups for 3-4 sites all synced up.

-Wayne

 

[wesct]

the sites are linked together by microwave.

wesct

 

[loumaag]

Mark,

The whole concept of a SmartZone system is that you can be anywhere on the system and maintain communications on your "home talkgroup". That is what talkgroup/site affiliation is all about. Using a real radio on the system as an example, no matter where you are on the system, if your home talkgroup is TG 144, your radio will notifify whatever site you are affiliated with (usually the strongest signal) that you need to hear TG 144 voice traffic. The system controller makes sure that any TG 144 traffic is routed to that site as well as any other site on the system with affiliated radios on TG 144. The fact that licenses are issued for frequencies in locations doesn't mean that they are used in all those locations. It is quite typical for system managers to license frequencies for multiple locations as this gives them the ability to move resources to where ever they may be needed. I am not in CT, I can't go to all those locations to verify what location has what frequency; but either you are right and the system is simulcast in many locations for different home areas, or the RR DB is right based on user submission of what frequency is used in what area. If you are, in fact, correct and the system uses some sort of strange hybrid of different zones and simulcast across zones then the RR DB entry is completely wrong. But in any case we are just wasting bandwidth on this discussion since I can't verify what that the RR DB is correct and I can't say for certain you are wrong.

the sites are linked together by microwave.

Well of course they are linked, how is not really important, but by definition a SmartZone system has each site linked to the central controler, that is how it works.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

we are just wasting bandwidth on this discussion

I wouldn't call it wasted, but it certainly doesn't belong here. Can all but the first post be split off into a new topic and moved into the Connecticut forum? I'd really like to get a better understanding of how the CSP system really works so that I can adjust my setup accordingly if need be.

 

[EricCottrell]

One physical site? To cover over 50 miles worth of I-95 (New York state line to Branford, CT)? C'mon, Lou... I value your opinion and knowledge, but I simply can't believe that is true. Plus, the FCC ULS Database shows the CC frequency (868.7500) located in 11 different towns around the state.
BROOKLYN
FRANKLIN
GREENWICH
NORTH GROSVENORDALE
REDDING
SHELTON
STERLING
STORRS
UNION
WEST HAVEN
WILTON

I've also been told that a CSP unit can travel from Greenwich (southwest corner) to Thompson (northeast corner) and never lose communication with its "home" site. I know Connecticut is a small state, but that just wouldn't be possible from "one physical transmission site", would it?

Hello,

The CT and MA state systems both use Smartzones with Simulcast.

"Site" 1 for South Fairfield County uses these locations:
GREENWICH, REDDING, SHELTON, WEST HAVEN, and WILTON

"Site" 6 for Windham County uses these locations:
BROOKLYN, FRANKLIN, NORTH GROSVENORDALE, STERLING, STORRS, and UNION

So if a unit affiliates with Site 1 then it's talkgroup is simulcast from the locations for site 1. If another unit on the talkgroup affiliates with Site 6 then the network will send talkgroup audio to the locations for Site 6 as well.

Being able to share Talkgroups between systems would be a handy feature if it can be done with a simple UI. There are some issues that need to be resolved like if the user deletes a TGID is it erased from all systems?

In my area there are two smartzones that cover Boston. Zone 5 is State Police in the Metro area and Zone 1 is for some of the other state agencies in Boston Proper. Zone 1 is totally within Zone 5. I programmed Zone 5 and Zone 1 as separate systems in the scanner. The talkgroup list is different for each scanner system because different agencies use each zone. The MA State trunked system has over 200 talkgroups but all talkgroups are not on all sites so having separate TGID lists is an advantage.

The Zone 5 scanner system also includes the control channels for the three zones in the Boston Tunnels. This works because I will tend to only receive one of them at a time and they carry similar talkgroups.

73 Eric