Dallas Wants to Upgrade 40-yrs Old Comm System

[letarotor]

City of Dallas embarks on plan to update communications system | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Breaking News for Dallas-Fort Worth | Dallas Morning News

I scratch my head as I read this article!

"City officials say they expect to meet their first deadline, a federal requirement to move to narrow bandwidths by the end of 2012. The city expects to fund most of the roughly $30 million price tag with federal grant money."
So does this mean they are going to spend 30 million now to narrow band al police and fire UHF radios? Is that really necessary because certainly the FCC will extend the narrow band deadline?

"The new system of transmitters, antennas and radios is estimated to cost nearly $100 million."
Knowing the way the City of Dallas does business, and how they love to spend a hundred dollars to save a dollar, double this figure!

"If we don't make the right decisions now, we're going to pay for it, and we're going pay for it in big ways," Mayor Tom Leppert said at a recent council meeting. "We just need to make sure that when we get down the line, we have haven't bought ourselves into the position of only having one bidder.
But Mr. Mayor, that is not the way things have ever been done in the City of Dallas. Dallas has always gone with the cheapest bidder, regardless of whether the service works as advertised or not.

"That option is still open, and certainly we've considered that because it's huge, huge money," she said, "and we need to have two groups bidding on it."
Why? If a single source vendor can do the job, and do it at a reasonable price and come in on budget and on time, what is the problem? The City's obsessive need to have multiple bidders on products and services, like in this case, is ridiculous. How about the City buy one type of radio so there are no issues trying to train people how to use two, or three, or four different types of radios.

 

[davidgcet]

the FCC will NOT extend the 1/1/2013 deadline, they have been more than clear about this for close to 15 years now.

Dallas could probably update to NB for a lot cheaper than the given price, BUT since they have to repalce everything anyway it makes sense to buy a system now that is at least capable of handling digital and future expansion/needs.

while they will have multiple vendors bidding, that does not mean they will award to multiple vendors. they would be fools to do so as any compatability issues would always be a "it is their fault" situation. they cna do P25 and then purchase subscriber units from anyone, but for the main infrastructure it should all be from compatible product lines.

 

[Russell]

Dallas recently added narrowband to every single conventional frequency license they hold (<512 MHz). An odd move if they plan to move to 700 MHz before next year. This would seem to suggest they plan to move to narrowband before any move to 700 MHz.

 

[davidgcet]

they don't have to go to 700mhz just to tie in. ASTRO 25 supports other band trunking, so they could trunk UHF and have their controller tie directly into the statewide 700 P25 system. it won't help them if they have to go out of the area to help with a disaster, but it will allow other agencies to come into the dallas coverage area and talk directly to them.

 

[letarotor]

Russell wrote: "Dallas recently added narrowband to every single conventional frequency license they hold (<512 MHz). An odd move if they plan to move to 700 MHz before next year."
Thanks for deciphering that fact Russell. I saw all those re-licences and didn't even consider the narrowbanding element. As far as moving to 700 by next year; there is no possible way. Nothing ever moves fast in the City of Dallas, especially 100 million dollar bond elections! Realistically, I just don't see a new fully accepted and operational P25 700 system in Dallas for at least another five years. My bet is it will take 10.

So the big question is how many UHF radios will the radio shop have to buy to replace units now that are not capable of narrowbanding? My issued portable is a HT1000. I doubt it is capable of narrow band channels?
Just think if the City had started this process as early as three years ago. That 30 million needed to replace wide band equipment now to meet this "obviously well kept secret narrowband deadline" could have be spent on the new 700 system. Oh, that's right, it wasn't a crisis three years ago!

David, what I was referring to was the actual purchase of radio equipment, not system infrastructure. Doesn't it make more sense from a training, tactical and operational aspect to have one model of mobile and portable radios, not three or four different models?

 

[davidgcet]

it makes all the sense in the world to stick with 1 model series, if nothing else so that chargers/batteries/accy are the same and for ease of training. but realistically some depts are going to want to cheap out for several reasons and some are going to want higher end radios. so unless the city administration mandates the use of brand X model Y, you will always have a mix.

and your comment about starting 3 years ago, i can't even get most agencies around here to start budgeting for it next year! they say they will fool with it in 2012, they don't seem to believe me when i say that if they wait too late they will be SOL. surprisingly i have better results with getting regular business customers to shell out the money for new radios than with governement agencies.

 

[motorola_otaku]

My issued portable is a HT1000. I doubt it is capable of narrow band channels?

Actually.. if it's a DN-revision it will do 2.5 kHz narrow-band FM. But that's beside the point.

I thought DPD was using XTS portables now? When I was downtown last summer all the officers I saw had XTS1500 model 1.5 portables (display/no keypad.)

 

[n5ims]

Please note that various threads (http://forums.radioreference.com/co...-two-way-radios-need-100-million-upgrade.html for example) indicate that much of this money is not for simply narrow-banding the existing DPD and DFR UHF frequencies, but for the new 700 MHz system (http://forums.radioreference.com/te...forum/185071-city-dallas-700-mhz-p25-trs.html) and more immediatly to "allow for the purchase of approximately 2,000 multi-band mobile and portable subscriber radios for Police and Dallas Fire-Rescue that meet new Federal Communication Commission (FCC) mandates for narrow-banding." This was voted on by the council on Nov 10, 2010 with the cost "Not to exceed $8,723,971 - Financing: Urban Area Security Initiative Grant Funds". The concil approved this motion as proposed on Nov 10, 2010 as well. (item 49 here http://www.dallascityhall.com/council_briefings/agendas/agendas_1110/FinalCombined_11102010.pdf)

These radios will allow them to use their existing UHF channels, the new NTCOG 700 MHz interop system, the new 700 MHz Dallas PD/FD P25 system, as well as the existing Dallas 800 MHz trunked system. PD and FD are first to prepare for the Super Bowl activities that reports indicate that the NTCOG system is expected to be ready for. They will also migrate over to their new system as it is built out and ready for the traffic (with the existing UHF channels as a fallback if needed).

With the purchase of 2000 new radios, it sounds like much of what is currently in use by PD/FD will be repurposed (if narrow-band capable) or scrapped (if not).

 

[letarotor]

Yea Motorola_Otaku, DPD has been issued a plethora of different types of portables over the years with as many different types of mobiles in the cars. I mistakenly said I had a HT1000, its actually an MT2000 and I was informed it will in-fact handle narrowband non splinter channels.

N5IMS: I have been following those other stories with great interest, including the $8.7 million federal grant for 2000 multi-band radios that was on the consent agenda weeks ago and that Mayor Leppert pulled at the last minute. What confuses me is the extra $30 million (over and above the $100 million estimated for the new 700 system) mentioned in this article. Where is all that money going now? Is it all being spent on new UHF narrow band equipment, which essentially will just be phased out in 3 to 5 years? Wouldn't it have made more sense to start the bond election process for a replacement radio system three or four years ago and been in a position to have already made the switch over to a 700MHz P25 trunked system?

 

[motorola_otaku]

If they buy multi-band mobiles and portables now (think the APX7000) then they won't need to be surplused, and when they go to 700 full-time they'll still have UHF capability for simplex, fallback, or interop with neighboring agencies if they so choose. And the cost to replace the UHF infrastructure (repeaters and whatnot) with narrowband-compliant equipment shouldn't be that significant - several hundred thousand to a mil and a half tops. The existing antennas and feedlines can be reused, and the existing wireline links from the repeater sites back to dispatch can be reused. If any of the channels are simulcast or use voted receive that would incur a hefty extra chunk of cash, though.

Anyway, I'm following this with interest because Houston has no plans to narrowband or modernize any of their existing UHF systems - they're just going to flip the proverbial switch when their 700 P25 systems roll out. It remains to be seen if the guys on the street will get multi-band handhelds and mobiles to smooth the transition out.

 

[reedeb]

No one can keep it simple. Just gotta have the newest radios and systems with all the bells and whistles [never mind the poor taxpayers]. And for what? They wont be getting thru IF they have a system malfunction [wait and see they get all this and in 6 months something will break and the whole shebang will go down.]

 

[letarotor]

"If they buy multi-band mobiles and portables now (think the APX7000) then they won't need to be surplused, and when they go to 700 full-time they'll still have UHF capability for simplex, fallback, or interop with neighboring agencies if they so choose."

Definately doing that now. The $8.7 million dollar grant approved Nov 10 is purchasing 2000 Motorola multi-band radios. I figure these will be issued out in the weeks before the Super Bowl.

"And the cost to replace the UHF infrastructure (repeaters and whatnot) with narrowband-compliant equipment shouldn't be that significant - several hundred thousand to a mil and a half tops. The existing antennas and feedlines can be reused, and the existing wireline links from the repeater sites back to dispatch can be reused."

Definatley what I was thinking, so why the extra $30 million figure now?

"If any of the channels are simulcast or use voted receive that would incur a hefty extra chunk of cash, though."

Both PD and FD channels are voted (Dallas is 435 square miles), so please elaborate on this issue more. Thanks.

Also, how close is Houston PD to switching over to 700 P25? We occasionally get tropo ducting from HPD. Will miss hearing it.

 

[procopper7005]

Dont worry folks the fine people at city hall will have your best interests in mind doing what makes the most sense and what costs the least to tax payers. No corruption or waste in Dallas city govt!

 

[reedeb]

Dont worry folks the fine people at city hall will have your best interests in mind doing what makes the most sense and what costs the least to tax payers. No corruption or waste in Dallas city govt!

I told before Enis, don't be sippin' the moonshine............................Just wreck the still.

 

[Baylink]

Both PD and FD channels are voted (Dallas is 435 square miles), so please elaborate on this issue more.

Jesus; *everything* is bigger in Texas.

That's nearly twice the size of my entire *county*.

 

[letarotor]

Yea, no joke. And not well known, Dallas has the largest urban forest in the United States. It stretches along the Trinity River from just south of downtown Dallas all the way south the the city/county line.

It finally dawned on me where the extra $30 million, or at least a large portion of it is going, when a friend jokingly remarked about the issue yesterday: Consultants.

 

[n5ims]

It finally dawned on me where the extra $30 million, or at least a large portion of it is going, when a friend jokingly remarked about the issue yesterday: Consultants.

consultant - con·sul·tant noun \kən-ˈsəl-tənt\
1) Relative, friend, political ally, or financial contributer to a politician with control of or influence over a large governmental project (when pay is large and tasks are small or unimportant).
2) Scapegoat used when project fails (when pay is small and tasks are important to the project).