Dancing radio-waves :)

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JELAIR

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I caught this short video which I thought was interesting.

Not the signal itself, but how it shows the atmospheric movements. A bit like when you watch the sun-light flicker in the water on the beach or a lake (Or coming and going behind clouds moving across the sky)

I was actually experimenting with an antenna-setup to see if I could hear 'whistlers' (On VLF), but so far I have not heard any of those and then I decided to see what else I could pick up with this antenna (A 'garden-variety' horizontal loop I suppose you could call it, or a 'disorganized' loop perhaps. In other words; not a perfect geometric shape, but working quite well :) ) and went 'channel-surfing' when I fell over this thing which fascinated me enough to record this video :)

I don't know what the signal itself is, but I'm guessing a radar-beam or something like that.

 

a417

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that's part of ITU channel 1238, where are you located?
 

JELAIR

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that's part of ITU channel 1238, where are you located?

Ahh, I see :)
I just checked up on that and found this list: https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=rtchan12

But what would they broadcast that is this wide (Apart from radar)? It's much bigger than the usual digital USB channels I see on HF.
This signal takes up about 20 kHz.
Some kind of video signal perhaps?

This was received in Southern Scandinavia (Denmark)
 

Ubbe

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It could be a simple interference. Switched power supply radiation looks similar to that signal. They operate on a switch frequency, with a lot of harmonics, and then frequency modulate the switched frequency with a lower frequency.

The FCC authorities measures the emitted RF and it needs to be below a certain level but the measurements are done at one single frequency at a time with a certain bandwidth and are sampled over a longer time. To defeat the test a manufacturer makes the low frequency modulation wide enough so that the majority of the emitted RF generates outside of the measured bandwidth and presto, it is below the maximum level allowed. It will actually interfere more to radio listeners as it's still has the same level but are also interfering over a wider frequency range.

/Ubbe
 

devicelab

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It could be a simple interference. Switched power supply radiation looks similar to that signal. They operate on a switch frequency, with a lot of harmonics, and then frequency modulate the switched frequency with a lower frequency.

+1
Noise -- nothing more. About 40hz... have any fluorescent lights near the antenna?
 

JELAIR

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You don't think the signal's 'movement' is caused by propagation-ducting?

It is a daytime recording, so I would imagine this being emitted by a local light is not very probable.
 

Token

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The signal you were receiving here is the Russian 29B6 Kontayner over the horizon radar. Which specific one it was (there are apparently 2 installations active at this time, with up to 4 planned) I cannot tell, they are pretty much identical.

The swepted (chirped) signal in this case is either 12 or 14 kHz wide (can't tell from your video, both have been used, as well as other waveforms), 40 Hz repetition rate, and FMOP (Frequency Modulation On Pulse). It may look (occupied bandwidth) wider than 12 or 14 kHz, but the actual chirped width in this mode is 14 or under kHz. Other modes, both wider and narrower and with other rep rates, have been seen, but this mode is most common. Each of the two 29B6 installations has displayed an ability to simultaneously transmit up to 4 beams, meaning it might be possible to see up to 8 total transmissions at any given time.

The undulating appearance is selective fading on the signal, caused by propagation, and is not part of the transmission.

The radar actually hit that frequency several times that day (12 February, 2020), for various lengths of time each, but for the specific period you have recorded there (around 1305z) the radar was on that frequency from about 1250z to 1325z. At the time you were recording the 29B6 on 13188 kHz the signal was on several other frequencies (remember I said up to 8 at the same time), including 16444 kHz, 15946 kHz, 15318 kHz, 14945 kHz, 11203 kHz, 10836 kHz, and 10596 kHz.

T!
 
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JELAIR

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The signal you were receiving here is the Russian 29B6 Kontayner over the horizon radar.

That makes sense to me :) Thank you very much.

I have virtually nothing but Russian HAM operators on all the amature-bands (Including Russian pirates), and several of the well-known Russian military-stations (Buzzer, Goose, Alarm, and those)

I seem to be at a good location for interception of Russian traffic. So good in fact I am considering if I should try to take up learning their language, so I could perhaps understand some of what I hear :LOL:
(I have actually had some success using the google-translate app on a smartphone to 'decrypt' some of the spoken words. Albeit the process is not totally unlike the scene in Star Trek where they try use a computer to translate Klingon and some of the words are significantly off :LOL: For example; the other day I had a Russian female Air-traffic controller who kept calling (Somebody I could not hear) if they could hear her transmission, and when she got through she apparently ended up saying, according to the google-app translator, she was going to "put gas on all 4 and go eat" :LOL: . But mostly it is still good enough to at least get a grasp of what a conversation might be about :) A few key-words here and there. And that tech will probably improve more)


The swepted (chirped) signal in this case is either 12 or 14 kHz wide (can't tell from your video, both have been used, as well as other waveforms), 40 Hz repetition rate, and FMOP (Frequency Modulation On Pulse). It may look (occupied bandwidth) wider than 12 or 14 kHz, but the actual chirped width in this mode is 14 or under kHz. Other modes, both wider and narrower and with other rep rates, have been seen, but this mode is most common. Each of the two 29B6 installations has displayed an ability to simultaneously transmit up to 4 beams, meaning it might be possible to see up to 8 total transmissions at any given time.

The undulating appearance is selective fading on the signal, caused by propagation, and is not part of the transmission.

The radar actually hit that frequency several times that day (12 February, 2020), for various lengths of time each, but for the specific period you have recorded there (around 1305z) the radar was on that frequency from about 1250z to 1325z. At the time you were recording the 29B6 on 13188 kHz the signal was on several other frequencies (remember I said up to 8 at the same time), including 16444 kHz, 15946 kHz, 15318 kHz, 14945 kHz, 11203 kHz, 10836 kHz, and 10596 kHz.

Yes, I have them on various frequencies from time to time.

The main bulk of the signal (When seeing how far out from the center the signal peaks at the same level as the center) seems to take place between 13.182 and 13.193 MHz (So perhaps 12 kHz is a good guess?), and then the side-slopes seem to each be about 2 kHz wide (With another 5 kHz of faint signal off to each side, after which it's visibly gone)
So a total width of up to about 26 kHz.

I found this other video of the radar and assume the user 'FirstToken' in the comments-section may in fact be you :D

Thanks a lot for your information :)
(Now if you could only share some of your Mojave Desert sun here that would be golden ;) We get nothing but rain in these parts)
 

Token

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The main bulk of the signal (When seeing how far out from the center the signal peaks at the same level as the center) seems to take place between 13.182 and 13.193 MHz (So perhaps 12 kHz is a good guess?), and then the side-slopes seem to each be about 2 kHz wide (With another 5 kHz of faint signal off to each side, after which it's visibly gone)
So a total width of up to about 26 kHz.

I found this other video of the radar and assume the user 'FirstToken' in the comments-section may in fact be you :D

14 kHz used to be the most commonly seen width, but the systems apparently underwent an update a while back (the were not seen on the air for months on end) and when they returned they were using slightly different parameters, 12 kHz became more common and the former default rep rate of 50 Hz is now 40 Hz. The fact that the signal is FMOP vs FMCW (as seen in the British PLUTO radar) means the occupied bandwidth is a bit greater. If you look at a PLUTO transmission in comparison to the 29B6 you find that even though the PLUTO is wider (20 kHz is its most common swept width) it often occupies less bandwidth. The energy is more clean and falls off quickly outside the swept width.

Yes, that is my comment on that video. I asked that because at the time, a bit before the 29B6 went off air for probable upgrade, you were occasionally seeing new and different things from 29B6. I had recently been told someone had seen the 29B6 in FMCW, vs FMOP, although I never caught 29B6 in FMCW myself, and so I was wondering how the poster of that video confirmed it was FMOP, or if he had jsut assumed FMOP since that is normally what 29B6 uses.

If you look at my videos on YouTube you will find a few examples of radars on HF, including one of how to tell PLUTO apart from 29B6. Unfortunately I did that video before 29B6 made its changes, and YouTUbe will not let me replace a video with a newer version. Youtube only includes the option to delete the old one, not replace it with a new one. I really need to do a new one and delete the old, but have not gotten around to it yet.

T!
 

JELAIR

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@Token; That is an impressive collection of recordings you have on your youtube :) I'm still a far-cry from that amount (Suffering urban antenna-limitation issues here I'm sorry to say, so the gems are harder to find.)

Your radar-video was a good tutorial. I will keep an eye out for this when I find them again :)
 

Token

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The signal you were receiving here is the Russian 29B6 Kontayner over the horizon radar. Which specific one it was (there are apparently 2 installations active at this time, with up to 4 planned) I cannot tell, they are pretty much identical.

<<<snip>>>

Each of the two 29B6 installations has displayed an ability to simultaneously transmit up to 4 beams, meaning it might be possible to see up to 8 total transmissions at any given time.

Just wanted to update this comment. I was pretty sure, based on observed activity, of the "2 installations active" at the time I wrote this, I am much less so now.

A historically rather well informed web / print source is relatively confident there is only one active 29B6 right now, with the others under construction or planned but not yet active.

However, there is no doubt I have seen and recorded up to 8 simultaneous beams that appear to be 29B6. The implication is that a single source is capable of 8 beams (instead of the 2 sources of 4 beams I thought was occurring), looking at pictures of the antennas provides further potential support to this. One of my assumptions is that they can then look at 8 different areas / regions at one time with a single radar installation, although it may be more of a case of covering 4 areas / regions with more redundant capability.

Video of 8 beams below, be warned, the sound is annoying.

T!
 

JELAIR

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Just wanted to update this comment.

Yes, thank you for doing that.

Which software do you use to measure repetition-rate and other stats?

I have been looking for a suitable spectrum-analyzer, but so far I have only found software oriented at music-use, but none that were more 'signal-agnostic' or oriented towards technical-signals.



And just a random piece of speculation here;

If these are 'early-warning' radars... then why aren't they running 24/7?

And... and this is most likely a wild one... since most of their number-stations always broadcast numbers of 5-digit lengths (I got a video of 'the english man' spitting out a +20 minutes long sequence of 5-digit numbers recently), is it remotely possible they could be using the frequencies as a kind of 'number-station'?

In your video that would be these 8 groups of 5-digit numbers:
10454, 10852, 10940, 13932, 14740, 15073, 15881, 15957

It would beat the vox-transmissions for precision, where some individual spoken numbers may drown in noise and not be copied by the recipient. With such a method the 'number' would simply fade in and out but always be the same, and the signals are relatively easy to distinguish from simple narrow-band empty carriers so the chance of mistake is low I would think.
 
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Token

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Which software do you use to measure repetition-rate and other stats?



I have been looking for a suitable spectrum-analyzer, but so far I have only found software oriented at music-use, but none that were more 'signal-agnostic' or oriented towards technical-signals.


I use a variety of softwares to measure and display sweeps and rates.

You can often use audio focused software for this purpose, after you demodulate the signal using a radio, then everything is at audio frequencies. So things like Audacity, Spectrogram16, Goldwave, Spectrum Lab, Soundcard Scope, etc, all allow you to display and measure once the signal is demodulated to audio. And of course, there is an entire market of high end programs to do detailed analysis of signals, like Go2MONITOR, Go2ANALYSE, Hoka Code 300, Krypto500, Wavecom, etc.

However, ideally to do so (use audio measurement and display software) you need to be able to have the entire waveform inside the audio passband. For example, a 14 kHz wide sweep would need to be demodulated in USB (or LSB) with a 14+ kHz audio bandwidth, and that is not always possible. You can still take some measurements even if you can't get the entire thing in the passband, but it is best if you can use a wide enough bandwidth.

It is sometimes better if you can do measurements and such at the RF level. For that programs like Signal Analyzer, SpectroVue, etc.


And just a random piece of speculation here;



If these are 'early-warning' radars... then why aren't they running 24/7?

OK, who said these radars don't run 24 hours a day? Right now I can look at the FullDay display on the University of Twente WebSDR and see that the Russian 29B6 has been on, one frequency or another, for over 24 hours. And anytime I go look for it, or the British PLUTO, I can generally find it, unless conditions are very bad.

There is no doubt, these are radars, no doubt at all. You can question the exact source, but the operations, habits, and waveforms are easily correlated to the task.

A quick primer on HF radars, particularly these kinds of long range OTHRs (British PLUTO, Russian 29B6, French Nostrodamus, Australian JORN, Chinese, Iranian, etc).

The basics of any radar apply, the system emits a signal, the signal reflects off a target back to the radar receiver, and the radar processing measures various aspects of the signal to detect / plot / track the target.

Some of the things radars may do: The radar may measure time of flight (the time it takes the signal to leave the radar until the time the signal returns to the radar) to determine range to the target. The radar may measure Doppler shift to determine radial velocity. The radar may look at specifics in the return, such as JEM lines (Jet Engine Modulation) to identify aspects of the target parameters. The radar may attempt to measure RCS (Radar Cross Section) to estimate target type. It may plot the track to determine target speed. And the radar uses a steered beam or angle of arrival to measure the azimuth angle to the target.

However, while these radars often can steer the beam in azimuth, they typically cannot really control the take off angle of the beam in elevation (other than by frequency selection). And then they rely on the ionosphere to reflect the beam back down to the Earths surface in the desired target area. To make the beam "land" in the right geographic areas they dynamically select frequencies. They intentionally pick a frequency that will reflect off the ionosphere at the right geometry to illuminate the desired region. And this "correct" frequency changes constantly.

So these radars typically step up and down the bands all day long. Sometimes they set on a given frequency for many hours, sometimes they are on a frequency for just a few minutes. The point is you generally see them following the propagation trends. During the morning hours they typically move up in frequency, during the evening hours they move down.


And... and this is most likely a wild one... since most of their number-stations always broadcast numbers of 5-digit lengths (I got a video of 'the english man' spitting out a +20 minutes long sequence of 5-digit numbers recently), is it remotely possible they could be using the frequencies as a kind of 'number-station'?



In your video that would be these 8 groups of 5-digit numbers:

10454, 10852, 10940, 13932, 14740, 15073, 15881, 15957



It would beat the vox-transmissions for precision, where some individual spoken numbers may drown in noise and not be copied by the recipient. With such a method the 'number' would simply fade in and out but always be the same, and the signals are relatively easy to distinguish from simple narrow-band empty carriers so the chance of mistake is low I would think.

Yeah...no. First, that is a big signal to handle such a small bit of data. While an SDR shows it pretty clearly, using something like a portable receiver it can be hard to get an exact center frequency.

Some beams will set on a frequency for hours each day, others move every fewn minutes. And if you do not know what "number" to look for, how do you find the next and be sure it is the correct sequence number? Also, since the 29B6 works between 6000 kHz and 19999 kHz, the 5 digit groups would always start with a 0 or a 1.

No, there is nothing in the frequency selection habits to suggest the selection of frequencies has anything to do with a message.

T!
 

JELAIR

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So things like Audacity, Spectrogram16, Goldwave, Spectrum Lab, Soundcard Scope, etc, all allow you to display and measure once the signal is demodulated to audio. And of course, there is an entire market of high end programs to do detailed analysis of signals, like Go2MONITOR, Go2ANALYSE, Hoka Code 300, Krypto500, Wavecom, etc.

However, ideally to do so (use audio measurement and display software) you need to be able to have the entire waveform inside the audio passband. For example, a 14 kHz wide sweep would need to be demodulated in USB (or LSB) with a 14+ kHz audio bandwidth, and that is not always possible. You can still take some measurements even if you can't get the entire thing in the passband, but it is best if you can use a wide enough bandwidth.

It is sometimes better if you can do measurements and such at the RF level. For that programs like Signal Analyzer, SpectroVue, etc.

Thanks a lot for those software suggestions :)

Yes, it could be I just see frequency-hopping (Between bands that are 'visible' and 'invisible' to my antenna) and not an actual break in transmission.

Also, for messaging I agree with you that it's more unlikely than likely.
But always nice to see other people's opinions and takes on various ideas/thoughts :) (Perhaps this is a method for a scifi-movie some day, lol ;) )
 

Token

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Yes, it could be I just see frequency-hopping (Between bands that are 'visible' and 'invisible' to my antenna) and not an actual break in transmission.

The other possibility is simple propagation. At various times the signal may not be heard at your location because propagation conditions just do not support it making it to your location.

T!
 

JELAIR

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The other possibility is simple propagation. At various times the signal may not be heard at your location because propagation conditions just do not support it making it to your location.

T!

I have seen strong signals abruptly cut, on several occasions. It looks exactly the same as when any other carrier is suddenly cut (Like when an AM-broadcast station goes off-air, for example. Or any FM transmission on VHF)
That's why I thought they cut the signal. I did not consider it could be frequency-hopping.

Propagation is definitely doing its thing too. But that always entails some fading in and out. No doubt it gives me random blind-spots though. The past week I have had 'bad' reception actually, with the radar-signals I can detect being quite faint at the moment.

But I probably also have some blind-spots that come from the antenna itself, regardless of other conditions.

It's a dynamic and fluid situation, as the popular saying goes :)

I think over time I might be able to accrete a more correct image of what's going on here. Also from learning from your observations and knowledge :)
At least now I know to scan the bands whenever a signal suddenly cuts, to see if I can find something that popped up elsewhere. But all this of course takes time, before I will get a more clear image and can begin to sort randomness from methodology and detect possible patterns.
 

Token

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Yeah, I was actually referring to when the signal hops to a new frequency, but you do not have propagation on the new frequency. You had it on the old one, but not the new one, I see that happen regularly.

T!
 
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