DE State Public Safety Aging Radio System

[jwhite591]

According to https://bidcondocs.delaware.gov/GSS/GSS_16771_800MHzUpgrade_rfp.pdf (Page-42)

The State of Delaware’s Division of Communications has recently entered into an eight-
year project with Motorola Solutions (“Motorola”) to migrate gradually the current LMR
infrastructure to ASTRO25 P25 Phase I technology. The existing system core has already
been upgraded to an ASTRO25 Release 7.13 core which controls the remaining
Smartzone 3.Z components utilizing Motorola’s SmartX technology. Additionally, the
State’s extensive backhaul network will be expanded and migrated to Ethernet technology
in support of the new LMR system as an important part of the multi-year project which is
expected to be complete in 2024.

As part of the project, over 100 Gold Elite consoles will be replaced with MCC7500
devices. The current three operating cells in Kent, New Castle, and Sussex counties will
begin an evolutionary multi-year migration from Quantar to GTR8000 transceivers. The
prime sites in each cell will be upgraded with new components, again on an evolutionary
basis, to ensure that first responders in each county cell may maintain interoperability and
normal LMR public safety communications during the multi-year transition period.

With the exception of the City of Wilmington, the current IntelliRepeaters (“IR”) sites in
New Castle County will be replaced by a new and expanded IP-based fifteen (“15”)
channel simulcast cell that will negate the need for these devices in the future. One
ASTRO25 Standalone Repeater (“ASR”) will replace the existing City of Wilmington IR
device. Ethernet technology will be employed to connect all devices to the main core as
well as a future back-up core (Dynamic System Resiliency or “DSR”) in a separate physical
location from the main system core. The cores will be connected by microwave which
shall have the capacity of two OC-3 paths.

In addition to the work described above, Motorola will be providing four new equipment
shelters to be installed at existing compounds. The complexity of these installations will
necessitate careful construction coordination as well as temporary intercommunications
between existing equipment in the current shelters and new hardware that will be installed
within the new shelters. During the period of transition, Motorola will provide inter-shelter
connectivity through fiber optic cables.

The above does not mention anything about P25 Phase II on the system , However I do know that they did change the specifications on the mobiles and portables so there is compatibility with Maryland First system, as to Maryland Refusing to let P25 Phase I Radios on their system.
All this information is from State Communications Personnel, and I think they know what they are Doing.

 

[maus92]

Re: Maryland "refusing" to let Phase 1 on their system: The standard site infrastructure in Maryland is what they refer to as a "six-pack." This means six channels, with two channels licensed with DDM (Dynamic Dual Mode) which allows them to operate in FDMA mode. Normally, a six pack allows for 10 TDMA talk paths. But say there is an incident where Delaware mutual aid units - some equipped with FDMA radios - are assigned to a major incident where two or three talk groups are in use (a dispatch, ops, and water supply channel). That reduces available talk paths on a six-pack site down to six or even four for all other users, and even fewer if somebody is using data. Maryland has added additional channels in Cecil and Talbot County sites to deal with the issue, and another DDM license to border sites. The bottom line is some yahoo with a FDMA subscriber (usually a personally owned radio at this point) can negatively impact the performance of the system, which is why the state no longer approves agencies / jurisdictions onto the FIRST system that are not TDMA capable. Existing Delaware FDMA radios are not "refused" access to the system.

 

[maus92]

I agree, my argument is if a phase 1 license key cannot be purchased for an xts 5000 because it is discontinued; the apx model A is discontinued how could a phase 2 license key be purchased? The same statement should be true. If a radio is discontinued then how can any license key be purchased?

Motorola still supports APX6000 until the end of 2023, so conceivably TDMA licensing is not an issue. But repair will no longer be guaranteed - it becomes "best effort."

 

[chrishoerner]

I’m sure the people at the radio shop know exactly what they are doing. As I’m sure some of you know way more, maybe even forgotten more than I’ll ever know. I’m also sure that a multinational corporations is exceeding good at maximizing their profit. I sense a tad bit of sarcasm on that last reply, perhaps with good reason from my one liner with the eye roll. I did not mean to come off as a know it all. If it was taken that way I apologize. Let me explain.

Every town, County, private organization, private business on the state radio system did not receive or buy every device they have directly from the state radio shop. Sometimes said entities are require to buy their own, out of their own budget. Disconnected from the people who really know what’s going on as you mention above. Maybe even sometimes with information that is years old. Most times the people responsible for passing the information to the people making these purchases or the people making the purchases themselves have a ton of other responsibilities. Maybe they care about this, maybe they don’t. Maybe they understand better than myself or any of us, maybe they don’t. If you don’t believe me you can look on the town of elsemere’s website and find an invoice where they had to buy encryption entitlements for their police officer’s radios themselves. This is my concern. I’ve already watched the xts series come and go, we we’re told they had to be purchased because of an upgrade. Was that a lie or incompetence Now we’re being told the same thing with the apx. It seemed like a large waste to me then and it seems like a waste again now. I will ask the question because it is all of our tax money, I could pay my delaware taxes for the next 10 years might not pay for one of these puppies. The source of my frustration is what seems as wasted tax dollars. We are not talking about a few hundered dollars here, we’re talking potentially millions of dollars replacing perfectly good radios.

My questions are.

1. If the state is not going to phase 2 why did we need to replace every xts with an apx?

2. If we knew we were upgrading to phase 1 back when the xts series were purchased. Why was a phase 1 license not purchased for every radio. This was the entire reasoning for spending all that money in the first place.

3. If we are going to phase 2 are we going to be told yet again the a radio needs replaced because the thing doesn’t have the right license keys. (Only in the case of the discontinued apx a model)

 

[chrishoerner]

Re: Maryland "refusing" to let Phase 1 on their system: The standard site infrastructure in Maryland is what they refer to as a "six-pack." This means six channels, with two channels licensed with DDM (Dynamic Dual Mode) which allows them to operate in FDMA mode. Normally, a six pack allows for 10 TDMA talk paths. But say there is an incident where Delaware mutual aid units - some equipped with FDMA radios - are assigned to a major incident where two or three talk groups are in use (a dispatch, ops, and water supply channel). That reduces available talk paths on a six-pack site down to six or even four for all other users, and even fewer if somebody is using data. Maryland has added additional channels in Cecil and Talbot County sites to deal with the issue, and another DDM license to border sites. The bottom line is some yahoo with a FDMA subscriber (usually a personally owned radio at this point) can negatively impact the performance of the system, which is why the state no longer approves agencies / jurisdictions onto the FIRST system that are not TDMA capable. Existing Delaware FDMA radios are not "refused" access to the system.

I think Maryland only lets delaware radios program directly in the M-tac channels for the exact reason you listed above. They don’t want people subscribing to normal ops channels as mentioned. They instead can get a set of easily patchable channels which normally carry no traffic. Pretty genius solution.

 

[jwhite591]

Actually you need to look at what the State of Delaware is Currently using Motorola Type II Smart-zone with APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive Audio, Now Motorola Type II Smart-zone technology is now obsolete where P25 is the new standard, Phase I Audio is already being used in the state so that should Not be an issue, the problem is the Trunking side of the radio, Now when they get the upgrade done, they will be able to buy and use other manufactures Equipment on the system.
and as far as Maryland goes you have to be enabled on the system in order the radio to work on the system, the problem is that a Radio in Phase I uses 2 talk paths on a Phase II System thus Hogs the resources of that system, that is why Maryland is Denying Delaware Phase I radios
But they will allow a duel mode radio as long as it does Phase II on their system

 

[maus92]

Hmm, I haven't seen the RCB policy that specifically denies official Delaware Phase 1 radios, although I can understand that privately owned or "extra" fire company radios have not been granted access to the system. Several years ago, Sussex County had a program to upgrade all of their APX radios to Phase 2. The state of Delaware is still working on making sure fire company radios - at least the ones they know about - are Phase 2 capable. I'll check to see if FIRST is actually denying registration to official Delaware Phase 1 only radios - that doesn't sound correct. The M-Tac solution may be a local jurisdictional arrangement, but if the assigned M-Tac talk group has an FDMA radio in the group, then the channel would consume 2 talk paths regardless.

 

[chrishoerner]

Actually you need to look at what the State of Delaware is Currently using Motorola Type II Smart-zone with APCO-25 Common Air Interface Exclusive Audio, Now Motorola Type II Smart-zone technology is now obsolete where P25 is the new standard, Phase I Audio is already being used in the state so that should Not be an issue, the problem is the Trunking side of the radio, Now when they get the upgrade done, they will be able to buy and use other manufactures Equipment on the system.
and as far as Maryland goes you have to be enabled on the system in order the radio to work on the system, the problem is that a Radio in Phase I uses 2 talk paths on a Phase II System thus Hogs the resources of that system, that is why Maryland is Denying Delaware Phase I radios
But they will allow a duel mode radio as long as it does Phase II on their system

There is no such thing as "Phase 1 Voice" its simply P25 Voice, Total different Licensee Keys Required. The term Phase 1 refers to P25 Phase 1 trunking with a 9600Kbps Control Channel. Not to be Confused with P25 Voice (Conventional or add on to a Moto Type 2 Astro 16 System which is acually Analog with exclusive P25 Voice). Also Phase 1 uses 1 talk path per Frequency Phase 2 you get 2, Maybe that was a typo. I'm Aware of what technology we are currently using and this is my point exactly, Astro 16 is yet another License Requirement. XTS Radios should of never been purchased without the Phase 1 License Key, if there are plans to upgrade. The result is now tons of these units need replaced. Please see below Part Numbers to help you understand.


Q806: ASTRO IMBE Digital Operation - This add on is required for P25 Voice (Conventional or over Astro 16)


H38: SmartZone Systems Operation - This Plus above are the minimum Required to work on Wilmington's Astro 16 System


Q173: SmartZone Omnilink MultiZone Operation - This Plus above is required to work on the 3 County Astrol 16 Simulcasts.


Q361: ASTRO 25 9600 Baud Trunking - This is required for Phase 1 Trunking.

XTS Models Cannot do Phase 2

 

[jwhite591]

Motorola ASTRO IMBE

APCO Project 25 - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

(This is the Existing Delaware System That Motorola is Dropping for more current)

Motorola ASTRO IMBE is a Motorola digital solution which is not compliant with the Project 25 standard. It is also called the "ASTRO Digital CAI (Common Air Interface) Option". This is a proprietary trunking solution that uses the Project-25 vocoder as its digital voice solution on top of a standard Motorola Type II Smartnet/Smartzone system.

You can call it anything you want but It uses the same chip as Project 25 Phase I, And Considering Motorola Solutions are doing the work, I know They Know what they are Doing, Not some fly by night radio Shop

 

[chrishoerner]

Motorola ASTRO IMBE

APCO Project 25 - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

(This is the Existing Delaware System That Motorola is Dropping for more current)

Motorola ASTRO IMBE is a Motorola digital solution which is not compliant with the Project 25 standard. It is also called the "ASTRO Digital CAI (Common Air Interface) Option". This is a proprietary trunking solution that uses the Project-25 vocoder as its digital voice solution on top of a standard Motorola Type II Smartnet/Smartzone system.

You can call it anything you want but It uses the same chip as Project 25 Phase I, And Considering Motorola Solutions are doing the work, I know They Know what they are Doing, Not some fly by night radio Shop

You’re getting far from my point. The chip for digital voice you’re referring to is an ambe vocoder, same chip required for dmr and nxdn to name a few nothing to do with trunking. But I don’t wish to talk about that anymore, it’s already been covered time and time again on this forum. let’s same room here for more useful information. All I’m saying is it’s a real shame there are a ton of xts radios out in the wild here without a phase 1 license key that if they had it wouldn’t need replaced at 6k a pop!

 

[Roach112683]

I'd think the APX license could be backwards compatible if the APX is compatible with the new system?

 

[Roach112683]

You’re getting far from my point. The chip for digital voice you’re referring to is an ambe vocoder, same chip required for dmr and nxdn to name a few nothing to do with trunking. But I don’t wish to talk about that anymore, it’s already been covered time and time again on this forum. let’s same room here for more useful information. All I’m saying is it’s a real shame there are a ton of xts radios out in the wild here without a phase 1 license key that if they had it wouldn’t need replaced at 6k a pop!

And if they did that then Motorola wouldn't ever make any money as a department could buy a model then keep it for 30 years and never upgrade.

 

[chrishoerner]

I'd think the APX license could be backwards compatible if the APX is compatible with the new system?

I would hope so but if the excuse is that it can’t be purchased for the xts why would the discontinued apx A model be any different. Kinda contradicts itself.

 

[jeepsandradios]

My questions are.

1. If the state is not going to phase 2 why did we need to replace every xts with an apx?

XTS Portables as well as XTL Mobiles never supported Phase 2 trunking. Only APX series will support P2. XTS/XTL did support P1 (FDMA) if the flash was ordered when the radio was new. There are no longer flashes for XTL/XTS Series. I have a box of UHF conventional only ones I would love to buy a flash for if I could. But we knew going in they couldn't be upgraded much longer and never did the upgrade prior to the cancellation.

 

[chrishoerner]

XTS Portables as well as XTL Mobiles never supported Phase 2 trunking. Only APX series will support P2. XTS/XTL did support P1 (FDMA) if the flash was ordered when the radio was new. There are no longer flashes for XTL/XTS Series. I have a box of UHF conventional only ones I would love to buy a flash for if I could. But we knew going in they couldn't be upgraded much longer and never did the upgrade prior to the cancellation.

It is very unfortunate! There are ways to upgrade them still if you’re not using them in any official capacity, it’s pretty easy once someone explains it to you.
The good news is though it does sound like from what you all are saying is there is still time for all apx models to be upgraded if need be.

 

[GTR8000]

I can almost promise you apx6000s were purchased without a phase 2 license, and some models have already dropped support. This should be entertaining.

I agree, my argument is if a phase 1 license key cannot be purchased for an xts 5000 because it is discontinued; the apx model A is discontinued how could a phase 2 license key be purchased? The same statement should be true. If a radio is discontinued then how can any license key be purchased?

The APX 6x00 AN models were discontinued in 2016, replaced with the APX 6x00 BN "Enhanced" models. That being said, the AN models are still supported, and will be until at least the end of 2023. That support generally refers to hardware repairs, however firmware and software support tends to continue beyond that point, as the majority of the APX series shares common firmware and CPS (NEXT being the exception with firmware). An example of that would be the APX 7x00 series, which despite no longer being supported for hardware repairs, has still received some new features and fixes via recent firmware, such as the UCL being expanded.

Bottom line is that FLASHcode feature upgrades (what you are referring to "license keys") can still be purchased for the 6x00 AN models, so adding TDMA is a non-issue.

 

[chrishoerner]

The APX 6x00 AN models were discontinued in 2016, replaced with the APX 6x00 BN "Enhanced" models. That being said, the AN models are still supported, and will be until at least the end of 2023. That support generally refers to hardware repairs, however firmware and software support tends to continue beyond that point, as the majority of the APX series shares common firmware and CPS (NEXT being the exception with firmware). An example of that would be the APX 7x00 series, which despite no longer being supported for hardware repairs, has still received some new features and fixes via recent firmware, such as the UCL being expanded.

Bottom line is that FLASHcode feature upgrades (what you are referring to "license keys") can still be purchased for the 6x00 AN models, so adding TDMA is a non-issue.

Thank you! This is exactly the information I was looking for!

 

[maus92]

You’re getting far from my point. The chip for digital voice you’re referring to is an ambe vocoder, same chip required for dmr and nxdn to name a few nothing to do with trunking. But I don’t wish to talk about that anymore, it’s already been covered time and time again on this forum. let’s same room here for more useful information. All I’m saying is it’s a real shame there are a ton of xts radios out in the wild here without a phase 1 license key that if they had it wouldn’t need replaced at 6k a pop!

Contract pricing for APX6000 has been significantly less than $6K; it has been closer to $3K. Maryland is getting ready to replace their APX6000 as they move out of support next year - it will be interesting to see what subscribers are chosen to replace them. Many users are now requesting dual / multi band radios.

 

[chrishoerner]

Contract pricing for APX6000 has been significantly less than $6K; it has been closer to $3K. Maryland is getting ready to replace their APX6000 as they move out of support next year - it will be interesting to see what subscribers are chosen to replace them. Many users are now requesting dual / multi band radios.

Even less if you can get them to buy a different brand 😎. Though with the trade in discount it makes it hard to compete. That and Moto has a very trusted name for very good reason, Monopolies are never a good thing though. Glad to see more multi bands out there. Was reading about delaware county pa planning on keeping their existing UHF Along side a new 7-800 system and subscriber units will be multi band. Seems genius to me, I wish more jurisdictions would consider backups. Trunking radio systems are cool and all but conventional radio just works. Believe sometime last year or early this year Cecil’s First sites went down. Fire departments were told to call dispatch via cell phone 🤦🏻‍♂️. I thought there were interop repeater in multiple bands up and down the Easter shore that could be turned on and off by dispatch. Are they gone or just forgotten about?

 

[maus92]

Even less if you can get them to buy a different brand 😎. Though with the trade in discount it makes it hard to compete. That and Moto has a very trusted name for very good reason, Monopolies are never a good thing though. Glad to see more multi bands out there. Was reading about delaware county pa planning on keeping their existing UHF Along side a new 7-800 system and subscriber units will be multi band. Seems genius to me, I wish more jurisdictions would consider backups. Trunking radio systems are cool and all but conventional radio just works. Believe sometime last year or early this year Cecil’s First sites went down. Fire departments were told to call dispatch via cell phone 🤦🏻‍♂️. I thought there were interop repeater in multiple bands up and down the Easter shore that could be turned on and off by dispatch. Are they gone or just forgotten about?

FIRST has not had a major outage other than a singular tower site going down from storm damage or cut fiber, so I'm not buying the story that the Cecil Simulcast or the Cecilton ASR actually went down for any length of time - we would have heard about at the RCB. That doesn't mean that the locality didn't have a connectivity problem on their side. I'd like to know more. Delco is moving off their interference prone UHF-T frequencies as soon as they can get the 700 trunking system up; their interim DMR solution will be maintained mostly for connectivity with small departments, but DMR is not public safety grade. In Anne Arundel County, we recently had a four-hour outage of the SmartZone system, and the backup plan utilizing 8TACs and the CMARC regional system failed miserably as coverage from those sites is limited. They are now using FIRST as their backup system and replacing the SmartZone system with a 22-site P25P2 simulcast system by the end of the year.