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Encryption has started.

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Wilmoor

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I run a BC796D in my office, listen to it during the day and keep up on what is going on. Well in my little corner of the world, Polk County, Florida, I encountered my first encrypted transmission. We had a local hold up at a convenience store, I picked up the tac channel ID in the Motorola Type II Trunked system our sheriffs department uses. Well on this ID I was picking up the P-25 transmissions and they showed as linked. The Captain was communicating with his linked subordinates with a P-25 that was encrypted and came thru as electronic screeches. So it has started. I forsee this becoming the norm which is not good news for our hobby. Guess I'll enjoy this while I can unless someone comes up with a code breaker program one can run thru your PC, cook the transmission and decode it, or maybe that is just wishful thinking.
 

dizwiz

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I truly hope someone comes up with a code-breaker.

This topic seems like a 'hot-potato' on this website. A lot of people hear got angry with me when I suggested that. IN fact, my post got locked. It is illegal, but so is speeding in a car. As long as you arent using a scanner as an aid to commit a crime, I dont see where the problem is.

All Im trying to do is keep this hobby alive, else the same law-abiding scanner listeners who yelled at me will soon have nothing to listen to.
 

lschmidt

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Ham radio has the ARRL,scanning enthusiasts need something simular.
Does something like that exist? If not,there sure needs to be.
 

Archie

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REPLY---ENCRYPTION

Like many other communities, your's may only use encryption on an optional basis, and not full time. See if your local media crime reporters know what is going on, or maybe a friendly cop might know, or you local elected official can gently ask on your behalf. Remember, your tax dollars bought this system, and knowing whether or not it's encrypted is likely a matter of public record.

Hope this helps...
 
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Wilmoor said:
I run a BC796D in my office, listen to it during the day and keep up on what is going on. Well in my little corner of the world, Polk County, Florida, I encountered my first encrypted transmission. We had a local hold up at a convenience store, I picked up the tac channel ID in the Motorola Type II Trunked system our sheriffs department uses. Well on this ID I was picking up the P-25 transmissions and they showed as linked. The Captain was communicating with his linked subordinates with a P-25 that was encrypted and came thru as electronic screeches. So it has started. I forsee this becoming the norm which is not good news for our hobby. Guess I'll enjoy this while I can unless someone comes up with a code breaker program one can run thru your PC, cook the transmission and decode it, or maybe that is just wishful thinking.

:arrow: Gentlemen and Ladies,
Decoding ENCRYPTED TXs is ILLEGAL.
I think that has been stated before
.
 

Wilmoor

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OKAY, OKAY Jerry, no need to shout.
Was merely wishful thinking on my part. It is unfortunate fact that over the air transmissions are going to encryption and that this hobby will end, I understand the need in todays post 9/11 world, it dosen't mean I have to like it.
 

rdale

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This hobby is not going to end. The number of agencies encrypting is a VERY small part of the total number of agencies in the country. Relax.
 

INDY72

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Not to mention, that of the ones encrypting, only a few of them encrypt full time.. though in FL that seems to be the home of encryption....
 
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Wilmoor said:
OKAY, OKAY Jerry, no need to shout.
Was merely wishful thinking on my part. It is unfortunate fact that over the air transmissions are going to encryption and that this hobby will end, I understand the need in todays post 9/11 world, it dosen't mean I have to like it.

Yep, point taken. This is still a Democratcia - Polish for Democracy, right?
Everybody has different views, that's all.
 
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milf said:
Not to mention, that of the ones encrypting, only a few of them encrypt full time.. though in FL that seems to be the home of encryption....

Thanks goodness that I live in O H I O but some agencies like S W A T well yeah encryption okay but everything? Including the Garbage Trucks and F.D.s? That might be too much. Although F.D.s and some municipalties might even have seperate Squad Agencies might fall under H I P P A which might warrant encryption? I would hope NOT though.
 
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JerryNone said:
Wilmoor said:
I run a BC796D in my office, listen to it during the day and keep up on what is going on. Well in my little corner of the world, Polk County, Florida, I encountered my first encrypted transmission. We had a local hold up at a convenience store, I picked up the tac channel ID in the Motorola Type II Trunked system our sheriffs department uses. Well on this ID I was picking up the P-25 transmissions and they showed as linked. The Captain was communicating with his linked subordinates with a P-25 that was encrypted and came thru as electronic screeches. So it has started. I forsee this becoming the norm which is not good news for our hobby. Guess I'll enjoy this while I can unless someone comes up with a code breaker program one can run thru your PC, cook the transmission and decode it, or maybe that is just wishful thinking.

:arrow: Gentlemen and Ladies,
Decoding ENCRYPTED TXs is ILLEGAL.
I think that has been stated before
.
The ONLY reason that I shouted was that so everybody understood that it is illegal wheter or NOT the encryption is done with bit keys or with Voice Inversion. Illegal is illegal. Besides we do NOT to give those memebers of the law enforcement community that may be memebers a bad view of scanning. Then they WILL start to encrypt everything.
Like in Cleveland Ohio, it is my understanding that they let you listen to the VSELP TRS. So alright it is through your computer but you can still listen but you can NOT hold anyone particular Talk Group.
The other thing that I have read many moons ago was that with a, well back then - don't know what it costs know or if they still do it, you needed to shell out 150 American Clams to get a permit to listen to the VSELP TRS if you wanted get a system radio that would of been programmed to RECEIVE (RX) only. 150 dollar permit plus 2 thousand for a radio.
So you can see how even VSLEP turns into a sort of encryption standard except if you are in the media, or rich.
 
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N_Jay

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JerryNone said:
So you can see how even VSLEP turns into a sort of encryption standard except if you are in the media, or rich.

OK< Just to keep everyone on the same page.

ENCRYPTION and ENCODING are two different things.

Encoding is like modulation. There are lots of ways to do it. The methid can be open or closed, but is constant. Once done, the signal must be un-done to recover the contents.

ENCRYPTION is Encoding with a secret key with the PURPOSE of hiding the contents. Once encrypted it MUST be DE-CRYPTED with teh apropriate key to recover the contents.

Decoding an ENCRYPTED signal (or even trying to) is Illeagal.

Reverse engineering an encoding scheme for personal use (not for sale or distribution) is legal, even if patented.

So there are LARGE differences, both technical and leagal, between encoding and encryption.
 

mdfillipp

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You're right. The legality of breaking encryption has been addressed.


SO WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP?


We all knows its illegal, so drop it. Do you think we're idiots? Stop reminding us who holds the moral high ground. Are you goin turn us in if we do it? No one's goin blame you if it happens.

If we wanted a legal lecture, we'd call a lawyer.

It's almost as if you take it as a personal attack or offense that we even speak about it.

If I ever see you speeding, I'll be sure to remind you of the legality of that.
 
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N_Jay

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mdfillipp said:
You're right. The legality of breaking encryption has been addressed.


SO WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP?


We all knows its illegal, so drop it. Do you think we're idiots? Stop reminding us who holds the moral high ground. Are you goin turn us in if we do it? No one's goin blame you if it happens.

If we wanted a legal lecture, we'd call a lawyer.

It's almost as if you take it as a personal attack or offense that we even speak about it.

If I ever see you speeding, I'll be sure to remind you of the legality of that.

I was addressing the statement;
"So you can see how even VSLEP turns into a sort of encryption standard except if you are in the media, or rich."

and while pointing out the differences decided to includ ethe leagal with the technical, as the previous person's statement minimized both.

Sorry
 

AZScanner

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OK, first off, as was stated before, it is illegal to decrypt an encrypted radio transmission. Has been since the 1930's. What follows will therefore be for educational purposes only. It's also based on alot of educated guesswork, so it may or may not be 100% correct.

On this site is a transcript of the famous "digital scanner" usenet post from a LOOOOONG time ago.

http://www.trunkedradio.net/trunked/stuff/astro.txt

Here's the part that we're interested in for this thread:

Now if the IMBE voice is encrypted we are out of luck, sort of... APCO-25 calls for a the DES encryption method with 56bit keys. I guess there are public domain DES rotines out there, anyone what to try and decode a DES encrypted call, might take years. I have a theory, since I have noticed that IMBE voice calls always begin and end with a fixed pattern we have information that makes it tons easier to decrypt. We can try different keys on the data until it matches this fixed pattern at the begining and end of the IMBE voice call... once we have the key its simple to run the DES decoder and get the raw unencrypted IMBE voice data.

Sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Well unfortunately for this guy (and the rest of us) Motorola was smarter than that. I know, I know... total bummer.

Judging by how my BC250D behaves while receiving an encrypted comm, the description given by the anonymous college kid isn't even remotely true or possible. It can't be. The scanner still recognizes that the transmission is P25 digital, it even syncs up and starts decoding audio without skipping a beat - the only problem is, it has no way to know the bits have been rearranged within each packet, so it ends up decoding garbage. Only when the decoded audio hits a certain frequency threshold does the scanner realize it's encrypted. That's why it can take up to 4 seconds of drunken R2D2 noises before you see ENC on the 250D's LCD screen. This tells me the "fixed pattern" he is referring to remains unencrypted and only the bits in between are scrambled. ARGH!

So does that mean it's impossible to do?

In a word: No. It CAN be done. It is most certainly NOT impossible. But, is it practical? IMHO, no way. But who knows, someone here may not think so.

OK, you're asking, how do you do it Mr. Wizard?

Well, I'll try to keep this brief.

1. You will need to create or acquire some software capable of decrypting the raw data using the DES standard. (there are free source code libraries that you can use - google will give you a list). For the real techno-geek, here's a link to the DES standard itself: http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip46-2.htm

2. You need a way to store a sample of the encrypted voice data from your scanner into the computer. A 4 level interface and a discriminator tapped scanner can provide this.

3. You need to write a program that will try random 56 bit keys on the data and feed the processed result out to a digital scanner (see step 4). In addition, the program has to be smart enough to detect whether or not the scanner still says it's encrypted or not. That means you'd have to use a Uniden model so you could poll it under computer control. Remember also that the frame sync patterns remain in the clear - only the data packets themselves are encrypted. This means you'll need to know the P25 CAI standard too. You can purchase the relevant documents online, but they are not cheap.

4. You need to figure out a way to get the processed result out to your digital scanner so you can recover the voice audio. It's not too tough to simply feed that data to a wave file that could be output via the sound card but the trick would be getting it into the scanner from there! You could hack into the scanner and tap the vocoder input, but a much simpler method would be to hack the transmit side of a baby monitor (replace the mic with a plug that would go to your line-out on your soundcard) and then tune that channel with your scanner. 8)

5. Lots and lots of free time to run your program, as there are 70 quadrillion possible keys that it could be. Most agencies will change their key periodically, some only do it once in a blue moon, others do it once a day. At any rate, if you somehow managed to guess the right key, it would only work until they change it. Then you're back to spending potentially MONTHS or even YEARS trying to find the new key. But, if you've got the skills and the time, it could be done. The nice thing is, your scanner will tell your program when you got it right - meaning that you could start it running and just check back on it from time to time....

5. If you ever got it right, you'd need another program that applies the key to the raw data as it comes in and then outputs the result to your soundcard. Then, using your baby monitor and scanner, you'd have a crude but working decryption station.

I have no intention of actually trying this. I'm just merely trying to explain how it could theoretically be done. If someone actually does this, as much as I'd love to know about it, you're probably best off keeping it to yourself (unless you've always wanted to go to federal prison).

-AZ
 

loumaag

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AZScanner said:
I have no intention of actually trying this. I'm just merely trying to explain how it could theoretically be done. If someone actually does this, as much as I'd love to know about it, you're probably best off keeping it to yourself (unless you've always wanted to go to federal prison).
Hmm, or perhaps looking for a job at the NSA? :lol:
 

INDY72

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To be done without killing your computer, you'd need a dedicated computer, preferrably a "super computer" maybe an old Cray XMP style?? This would have to be dedicated to the encryption hacking. As was stated, yes you could do it, but it would take time, cost a lot, and in the end youd be soo proud of yourself, youd talk, and then we will read about a hacker cracking someone's encryption and being sent to a nice lil room in a federal crossbar hotel, and then read about someone inventing a NEW encryption statndard and all the radio systems we used to be able to hear suddenly will go to the new format fulltime for security reasons. Its just not worth it.
 

AZScanner

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milf said:
To be done without killing your computer, you'd need a dedicated computer, preferrably a "super computer" maybe an old Cray XMP style?? This would have to be dedicated to the encryption hacking.

Nope, any old computer would do, because the bottleneck there is the scanner itself. See, with each random key generated, the data would be processed and handed off to a Uniden digital radio for decoding. You'd have to wait at least 5 seconds for each attempt to determine if you got it right (scanner does not display ENC during decode). Of course a real techno-geek would create a PC based decoder too (which is rumored to exist - can't say who told me about it, but you can probably guess) so that the results could be processed faster.

milf said:
As was stated, yes you could do it, but it would take time, cost a lot, and in the end youd be soo proud of yourself, youd talk, and then we will read about a hacker cracking someone's encryption and being sent to a nice lil room in a federal crossbar hotel, and then read about someone inventing a NEW encryption statndard and all the radio systems we used to be able to hear suddenly will go to the new format fulltime for security reasons. Its just not worth it.

Oh I agree, but I thought this would help explain to the noobies why someone hasn't done it yet. It sounds pretty easy until you realize what you actually need to do to make it reality.

-AZ
 
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