Fairly new to digital scanning, can anyone explain some of my confusion?

[saioke]

So, I'm feeling somewhat comfortable with understanding trunking systems but still have a lot to learn. Currently, I have a Whistler WS1065. I have two separate Ohio MARCS-IP TSYS programmed for my county, as well as a close neighboring county, programming each site frequency for my county into two separate scanlists. I have both TSYS set up as a wildcard, and I've been looking up and programming TID's that I can pick up that I'm interested in individually per county so that eventually, I could do away with the wildcard.

One issue I'm having is, some TID's from neighboring counties will show up, despite those counties being kind've far. For example, I've been picking up Gallia EMS, and I'm in the Vinton area. These sites aren't simulcast, so am I to presume that these talkgroups just so happen to be close enough to the sites that I have programmed that they connect/use the towers too?

Another thing is that since I'm using two seperate TSYS based on county, in two seperate scanlists, I tend to pick up say, one counties talkgroup IDs that I have programmed in one system, showing up in the other TSYS that I ALSO need to program into. This seems odd and I feel like this is the wrong approach. Should I just make one large Tsys, put sites from both counties into the one TSYS? Or would this result in slower scanning, potentially missing out on some calls?

Also one more question. I've noticed that there's usually two control channels per site in my area. Typically, one of those control channels has a much better signal and the other control channel is sketchy and doesn't always detect the trunk signal. Would it be wise to just remove one of the site's weaker control channels in favor of the strongest one? Or are both control channels needed for data to be read correctly?

 

[hill]

You will pick up other couties if units roam onto tbe site you are monitoring.

This will drag traffic for that talkgroup onto the site you are monitoring.

Depending how the system is set up some radios can roam systemwide and others will have limits on the sites they can use.

It is not unusual for nearby radios to get a better signal on a site in a different county

Also people can have radios on while doing EMS and prisoner' transports to other areas which also drags talkgroups.

 

[BinaryMode]

Gallia EMS is probably transporting someone to or through your area. When they do they will AFFILIATE (keyword there) with the tower you're monitoring. Thus you're now hearing outside traffic from Gallia EMS.
This is how a state-wide MAC (Mutual Aid Channel) can work. Anyone can talk to anyone state wide because all the towers are connected. Either via microwave link, copper or fiber...

Another thing is that since I'm using two seperate TSYS based on county, in two seperate scanlists, I tend to pick up say, one counties talkgroup IDs that I have programmed in one system, showing up in the other TSYS that I ALSO need to program into. This seems odd and I feel like this is the wrong approach. Should I just make one large Tsys, put sites from both counties into the one TSYS? Or would this result in slower scanning, potentially missing out on some calls?

I don't know how the Whistler scanners work, but how I do things in a Uniden is program the towers near me in what is called a system. My first system contains two very strong nearby towers called sites. My third system is tower three programed as a third site. Both systems containing all three site share all the talkgroups I'm interested to in my area. If you programed the individual talkgroups themselves in addition to the tower frequencies you shouldn't be hearing anything else except the programed talkgroups. It sounds (no pun intended) like you're monitoring the whole tower/s and anything and everything coming off that tower. You don't want that. You want to monitor individual talkgroups from those towers in your area of Vinton.

So, say you program all of Allensville (Vinton) which has only three 700 MHz frequencies. Now you program the talkgroups you're interested in your area. Like Sheriff Dispatch which is talk group 48000 in decimal format or bb80 in hexadecimal format if Whistler uses hexadecimal for talkgroups.

Also one more question. I've noticed that there's usually two control channels per site in my area. Typically, one of those control channels has a much better signal and the other control channel is sketchy and doesn't always detect the trunk signal. Would it be wise to just remove one of the site's weaker control channels in favor of the strongest one? Or are both control channels needed for data to be read correctly?

Each tower should be broadcasting on one of he designated frequencies for the control channel. The control channel tells the radio which voice channel to go to to hear the talkgroup. It's why it's called a control channel after all. Kinda like someone controlling traffic on a highway or something. Using this analogy, each traffic lane is a voice channel. With Union Furnace there are three voice channels so a three lane highway for anyone (talkgroup) can go to at anytime directed by the control channel (highway flagger). It does appear you guys use more than one control channel per tower which is kinda interesting I guess. So yeah, just program the ONE strongest control channel. That makes things harder when mobile though because the other control channel could be stronger at any given time. Odd reception would be different though from the same tower.

Where I live there are backup control channel frequencies per tower and those can be a voice channel at any given time. Ideally you should be able to just program the active control channel and it'll auto tune the voice channel frequency without having to program the voice channel frequencies. For Uniden it's called control channel only monitoring. I don't use that method myself in case the control channel frequency were to ever change. Rare, but can happen I suppose. I program the whole lot per tower and stay abreast of any changes from the database. Running a trunk tracking program will confirm frequency changes...

 

[saioke]

Gallia EMS is probably transporting someone to or through your area. When they do they will AFFILIATE (keyword there) with the tower you're monitoring. Thus you're now hearing outside traffic from Gallia EMS.
This is how a state-wide MAC (Mutual Aid Channel) can work. Anyone can talk to anyone state wide because all the towers are connected. Either via microwave link, copper or fiber...



I don't know how the Whistler scanners work, but how I do things in a Uniden is program the towers near me in what is called a system. My first system contains two very strong nearby towers called sites. My third system is tower three programed as a third site. Both systems containing all three site share all the talkgroups I'm interested to in my area. If you programed the individual talkgroups themselves in addition to the tower frequencies you shouldn't be hearing anything else except the programed talkgroups. It sounds (no pun intended) like you're monitoring the whole tower/s and anything and everything coming off that tower. You don't want that. You want to monitor individual talkgroups from those towers in your area of Vinton.

So, say you program all of Allensville (Vinton) which has only three 700 MHz frequencies. Now you program the talkgroups you're interested in your area. Like Sheriff Dispatch which is talk group 48000 in decimal format or bb80 in hexadecimal format if Whistler uses hexadecimal for talkgroups.



Each tower should be broadcasting on one of he designated frequencies for the control channel. The control channel tells the radio which voice channel to go to to hear the talkgroup. It's why it's called a control channel after all. Kinda like someone controlling traffic on a highway or something. Using this analogy, each traffic lane is a voice channel. With Union Furnace there are three voice channels so a three lane highway for anyone (talkgroup) can go to at anytime directed by the control channel (highway flagger). It does appear you guys use more than one control channel per tower which is kinda interesting I guess. So yeah, just program the ONE strongest control channel. That makes things harder when mobile though because the other control channel could be stronger at any given time. Odd reception would be different though from the same tower.

Where I live there are backup control channel frequencies per tower and those can be a voice channel at any given time. Ideally you should be able to just program the active control channel and it'll auto tune the voice channel frequency without having to program the voice channel frequencies. For Uniden it's called control channel only monitoring. I don't use that method myself in case the control channel frequency were to ever change. Rare, but can happen I suppose. I program the whole lot per tower and stay abreast of any changes from the database. Running a trunk tracking program will confirm frequency changes...

I appreciate you responding and going into such detail, I feel like I've learned a lot more just from your post and feel like things have been clarified.

Honestly, I do enjoy picking up other counties occasionally, which is why I keep a wildcard in my system. Lately I've been programming talkgroups that show up simply so I can either lock them out, or provide some details about what I'm hearing so I don't have to look them up on RR every time lol. A lot of the talkgroups that show up from other counties tend to come in clearer than even my own county's ems and sheriff dispatch. But, I do have a yagi and it's not really even pointed towards my county's towers but instead towards the Jackson ones, because I enjoy picking up the Holzer hospital. It's actually the closest hospital to me so any EMS going out usually ends up there. A lot of talkgroups tend to go silent when stating certain private information, and I assume that's some sort of encryption.

But yeah, the whistler tends to work the same way as the Uniden afaik, I also have to deal with systems. Glad to know it's similar so if I ever decide to get the SDS200, I at least won't have to learn too much lol. I would love to get the SDS200, it's just so pricey. I could probably sell some of my guitars and amplifiers to get one but eh, aren't too many people around here that play with that type of stuff. But, the WS1065 has been doing me good for the time being, as long as my state doesn't end up switching to Phase 2 or simulcast takes over in my area.
So, is it bad to keep wildcards running? Will they hurt the scanning performance or something? I get that impression when you say that I don't want it and to just put in the local talkgroups. Some of the unknown talkgroups that come through can be choppy, but for the most part they don't talk too often.

So you program voice channels along with the control channels? I know only the CC is necessary but I wonder if by adding the voice channels to a system, that the scanner won't have to sit around a bit longer on a control channel, if that makes sense.

 

[BinaryMode]

Yes, you SHOULD program the voice channels and the control channel. Then you program the talkgroups you're interested in hearing. Well, to be fair it's user preference. As I mentioned earier, programming the voice channels in addition to the control channel insures that if the control channel ever changes you won't miss anything. Probably rare that should happen though. What it sounds like you're doing is control channel monitoring. So you program just the control channel and the scanner will auto jump (behind the scenes) to the voice channel. Then back to the control channel after the voice transmission has ended.

As to the database, do what I do, go to File and save as. Now you have an HTML copy on your desktop. I keep an archive and update my download every month or so. I can also massage all the data using PHP code and regex (Regular Expression) and whatnot, but that's far and away form the discussion here. LOL

About the SDS. A wise man once told me... No, I tell myself that with any major purchase I make I do my due diligence and research. I do so with all my computer crap and whatnot too. But here's a tip: never trust ratings. Like Amazon ratings, Trustpilot and whatnot. It's all so massively tainted it's not even funny. I once found a website from a company out of the UK who's name escapes me now, but they do ratings research and other things and they had an interesting piece out there about ratings for Amazon and other websites. The company sounded really legit and they have won all sorts of awards too. During COVID They even had an off the shelf piece at their website talking about how through their company investigative research and whatnot they discovered that vitamin D really did play a part in whether you would become very ill or not with COVID. They made mention they normally don't post things like that, but because they found so much information on it with their research they had to write about it. Make sense I guess because vitamin D is great for all sorts of things and I think may modulate the immune system. I think... I'm not a doctor. LOL

At any rate, yeah, do your due diligence and research big time purchases. It would be a real pity to sell a bunch of audio gear to have something that may not be up to your expectations, ya know? If all you do is monitor everything and anything on the tower/s, Icom has you covered with their digital capable handheld IC-R30. The price is right up there with the SDS, but the Icom is not trunk capable. It will just scan all the voice channels and you hear everything and anything with no talkgroup segregation so to speak. Kinda sucks because if it had trunk following so that I could just hear the talkgroups I want to hear I'd be interested in the radio. As it stands now I'll wait a few years (probably 10 knowing the inflated radio market) and buy one used on eBay. Again, if you're just monitoring everything off the tower than that Icom digital modulation capable radio is your ticket. Plus, it can decode other digital modulation schemes the Uniden can not. But that may be pretty niche unless your an amateur radio operator...

I happen to like my P2 scanners. The (*takes massive breath*) BCD325P2 (unnecessary long model number) handheld I own I bought on eBay for around $400. But, BUT! it was a massive steal because it already had all three upgrades bought and paid for of DMR, NXDN and Provoice. I saw lots of (*takes massive breath*) BCD325P2's but I was careful to only purchase one that already had one or more upgrades. LOL

Now my other P2 mobile in the car, a (*takes massive breath*) BCD996P2 didn't have any upgrades. What I did was purchase those direct from Uniden with the "My Uniden account" I think it's called. Others on the "Internets" -(1)- charge more than right from the horse's mouth Uniden. So be aware of that.

Anyway...

 

[chief21]

Yes, you SHOULD program the voice channels and the control channel.

Not really sure how the Whistler models work, but it's NOT necessary to program any voice channels with a Uniden scanner. Most systems have a primary control channel and one or more alternate control channels. In the RR database, designated control channels are shown in RED. Programming ONLY these designated control channels will ensure that the system will continue to be received even if/when the current control channel changes.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Not really sure how the Whistler models work, but it's NOT necessary to program any voice channels with a Uniden scanner.

This is true for P25 only. All voice channels for DMR & NXDN need to be programmed along with their correct LCNs when applicable for proper trunk tracking

 

[RockyMtnWay406]

Yes, you SHOULD program the voice channels and the control channel. Then you program the talkgroups you're interested in hearing. Well, to be fair it's user preference. As I mentioned earier, programming the voice channels in addition to the control channel insures that if the control channel ever changes you won't miss anything. Probably rare that should happen though. What it sounds like you're doing is control channel monitoring. So you program just the control channel and the scanner will auto jump (behind the scenes) to the voice channel. Then back to the control channel after the voice transmission has ended.

As to the database, do what I do, go to File and save as. Now you have an HTML copy on your desktop. I keep an archive and update my download every month or so. I can also massage all the data using PHP code and regex (Regular Expression) and whatnot, but that's far and away form the discussion here. LOL

About the SDS. A wise man once told me... No, I tell myself that with any major purchase I make I do my due diligence and research. I do so with all my computer crap and whatnot too. But here's a tip: never trust ratings. Like Amazon ratings, Trustpilot and whatnot. It's all so massively tainted it's not even funny. I once found a website from a company out of the UK who's name escapes me now, but they do ratings research and other things and they had an interesting piece out there about ratings for Amazon and other websites. The company sounded really legit and they have won all sorts of awards too. During COVID They even had an off the shelf piece at their website talking about how through their company investigative research and whatnot they discovered that vitamin D really did play a part in whether you would become very ill or not with COVID. They made mention they normally don't post things like that, but because they found so much information on it with their research they had to write about it. Make sense I guess because vitamin D is great for all sorts of things and I think may modulate the immune system. I think... I'm not a doctor. LOL

At any rate, yeah, do your due diligence and research big time purchases. It would be a real pity to sell a bunch of audio gear to have something that may not be up to your expectations, ya know? If all you do is monitor everything and anything on the tower/s, Icom has you covered with their digital capable handheld IC-R30. The price is right up there with the SDS, but the Icom is not trunk capable. It will just scan all the voice channels and you hear everything and anything with no talkgroup segregation so to speak. Kinda sucks because if it had trunk following so that I could just hear the talkgroups I want to hear I'd be interested in the radio. As it stands now I'll wait a few years (probably 10 knowing the inflated radio market) and buy one used on eBay. Again, if you're just monitoring everything off the tower than that Icom digital modulation capable radio is your ticket. Plus, it can decode other digital modulation schemes the Uniden can not. But that may be pretty niche unless your an amateur radio operator...

I happen to like my P2 scanners. The (*takes massive breath*) BCD325P2 (unnecessary long model number) handheld I own I bought on eBay for around $400. But, BUT! it was a massive steal because it already had all three upgrades bought and paid for of DMR, NXDN and Provoice. I saw lots of (*takes massive breath*) BCD325P2's but I was careful to only purchase one that already had one or more upgrades. LOL

Now my other P2 mobile in the car, a (*takes massive breath*) BCD996P2 didn't have any upgrades. What I did was purchase those direct from Uniden with the "My Uniden account" I think it's called. Others on the "Internets" -(1)- charge more than right from the horse's mouth Uniden. So be aware of that.

Anyway...

Well, albeit long winded .. I very much appreciate the info. I have my BCD325P2 pretty much figured out. I suppose there's some custom stuff I could do but I'm monitoring and hearing what I want, she that's my objective. That said, it got pretty quiet the last 2 days. Either we're having some sort of "solar flare" or something to interfere in transmission or something is wrong with my radio. I pick up some (very few) transmissions the last 2 days.

 

[saioke]

So I've been thinking and reading up more about how p25 systems work and I'm curious about something new. So, each site will repeat what a tg says as long as it's in the radius of the site tower, right? Let's say that there's 2-3 sites for my county alone. If one TG talks and comes in on one of those sites, they would be repeated on the other sites too as long as they're in range?

So in reality, there's really no reason to program the extra sites in my area unless I want to hear some of the farther areas in my county? I should just program the site that is closest/provides the best signal? if talkgroups talk on one site and I don't have that site programmed into my scanner, the other sites that are in practically the same area will provide the same audio? Or does it only work like that for simulcast?

 

[BinaryMode]

The sites will be connected via hard line copper POTS (Plain Old Telephone System), fiber or microwave. If say, Nowhere town PD talks on site A in the area of Nowhere town and you have the Nowhere town site A programed you will of course hear that traffic on that site if you have the PD talk group programed. Also, if there are other sites near Nowhere town to expand coverage, it'd be wise to program those too providing you have a good signal from them.

Now, if Sometown PD comes into Nowhere town and talks on the site in Nowhere town, you'll hear it too if you have that talkgroup programmed for Sometown.

If someone else has a radio programed to Somewhere town and is in your area they will AFFILIATE with the sites in your area and you can hear that traffic if you have those talk groups programmed.

The whole basis of P25 (Project 25) formed by APCO is interoperability. The sheriff in say Dead town can talk to Nowhere town even if they're some 200 miles apart because all the sites are interlinked via copper, fiber or microwave. Consequently, if the sheriff from Dead town ventured up to Nowhere town for court, they can talk back to Dead town some 200 miles way.

The key thing is this: program the sites in YOUR AREA. Then the talk groups in YOUR AREA you're interested in. That's it.

But like I said, I personally program the control channel and all the voice channels from the site in case a voice channel turns into a control channel. You don't have to do that and can just program the control channel and use control channel only scanning, but if that control channel is no longer a control channel you'll lose transmissions.

1- Control channel
|
|
A- Voice channel 1
B- Voice channel 2
C- Voice channel 3
D- Voice channel 4
|
|
|
Talk group xxxx - Fire Dispatch
Talk group xxxx - Fire ground
Talk group xxxx - PD dispatch
Talk group xxxx - PD channel 2
Et cetera...

That's pretty much it in its simplest form. I've been monitoring P25 systems since 2004 so know. The whole thing is like a cellphone system in reality. Cell phone towers also have control channels that your phone is constantly monitoring and handing off as you move from one location to another. When you establish a call you are on like a voice channel. It is like a trunked system. Trunked systems utilize the same channels for all users. It's like standing in line at a bank with other people waiting your turn for the next available teller. Each teller is like a voice channel. You may get teller A at one time and then teller B another time and the process repeats - trunked system. In networking it's the same thing with VLANs - 802.11Q, but that's off topic.

So in reality, there's really no reason to program the extra sites in my area unless I want to hear some of the farther areas in my county?

Program ALL the sites near you that have a good, strong signal.

You will not hear anyone further away unless, A, you can receive that site's signal, and B, you have talk groups programmed to that interested area. If I wanted to hear Denver From Colorado Springs I'd need to be near or in Denver and one of their site's, or someone in my area would have to be affiliated to Denver on a site near me. Remember, they'll all connected via copper, fiber or microwave.

if talkgroups talk on one site and I don't have that site programmed into my scanner, the other sites that are in practically the same area will provide the same audio? Or does it only work like that for simulcast?

Should, yes. There are site numbers and neighbors...

In my area I actively monitor two sites that are near me. There's also a third I have programmed, but I only use that site if I'm near that area. But all three sites carry the same traffic for the talk groups I'm interested in - well, for the most part. One site is in the mountains and if there's a mountain rescue near there chances are all units there will be talking on that one site (unbeknownst to them) because that site is closest to them with a stronger control channel signal. Sometimes their radios can't even hit that tower in the mountains so they go simplex (radio to radio) without the tower or dispatch involved. Which means you're not hearing that traffic unless you're near them and have the tower input frequencies programmed. Not something public safety wants to do unless you have to.

 

[saioke]

Wow, thanks for the in depth information and I appreciate putting things in simple terms. I just so happen to live in nowhere town lol. but I'd like to clear things up just a bit more. So let me just confirm that if nowhere town PD talks on site A, but I only have site B programmed, but site B is still in the vicinity of their location. I'll still hear what they're saying on site A if I have site B programmed? For example, this site has Wellston, Mccarther, etc in the defined coverage. It's closest to Wellston. This site, the same areas are practically within the defined coverage. But Wellston is a bit further away. if I programmed the Jackson site and didn't program the Wellston site, I would still pick up TGs in the Wellston area as long as they're in the defined coverage area listed on the site page?

I'm just wondering all of this because I have that Jackson site programmed as I get a strong signal. But there's 2 other sites in Jackson county that I can't seem to pick up too well. I had them programmed but TGs would talk on them and the audio would be choppy, and they would just cut out and my scanner would linger on them for a bit before it moved on despite it being quiet. So it would be nice to hear the same audio coming through on the stronger tower now that I removed the other sites in the area. I could probably pick them up if I could get my antenna higher, but I have a massive fear of heights so I'm not sure how I could go higher unless I buy some telescopic pole lol. It was hard enough on me to climb 10 feet so I could install my antenna on the side of my house.

Voice channels can turn into control channels? How often does that happen? Currently I just have the active CC programmed in my scanner. I figured I'll likely notice if they switch it up on me. I've been told that programming the CC as well as all the voice channels will actually make the scanner more efficient at scanning. Not sure how true that is, but I'm thinking of trying it soon enough. I'll try anything to try to get those other sites with weak signals to come in better. I've already tried reducing squelch down to zero as suggested by others but it doesn't seem to make a difference at all.

 

[hill]

You will only hear on site B if some radio from the talkgroup you wish to receive is affiliated with that site.

If no radios are affiliated the radio traffic for that talkgroup won't be heard on that site. So others can use this site.

 

[saioke]

You will only hear on site B if some radio from the talkgroup you wish to receive is affiliated with that site.

If no radios are affiliated the radio traffic for that talkgroup won't be heard on that site. So others can use this site.

The Ohio MARCs system is state-wide, so wouldn't that mean every talkgroup using the MARCs system is affiliated with every site? Just, separated by distance?

 

[phask]

The Ohio MARCs system is state-wide, so wouldn't that mean every talkgroup using the MARCs system is affiliated with every site? Just, separated by distance?

No - many talkgroups are limited to their local site(s). Lots of County users are only "allowed" on local sites. Some county sheriff have a regular limited TG and a statewide TG if needed when outside the county.

 

[saioke]

No - many talkgroups are limited to their local site(s). Lots of County users are only "allowed" on local sites. Some county sheriff have a regular limited TG and a statewide TG if needed when outside the county.

Thanks for clearing that up. So talkgroups in the immediate county area should theoretically all be the same regardless of the site, as long as the site is dedicated to the county that I want to receive. I mean, talkgroups are unlikely to differ between sites but rather, between counties. A site that I can't pick up too well in the same county, should be allowing the same talkgroups as a site that's just a bit closer and for the most part, that seems to be the case. Perhaps that differs depending on how big a county/city/area is.

 

[phask]

Thanks for clearing that up. So talkgroups in the immediate county area should theoretically all be the same regardless of the site, as long as the site is dedicated to the county that I want to receive. I mean, talkgroups are unlikely to differ between sites but rather, between counties. A site that I can't pick up too well in the same county, should be allowing the same talkgroups as a site that's just a bit closer and for the most part, that seems to be the case. Perhaps that differs depending on how big a county/city/area is.

All that. and then some. Physically large countys may have someone in one end that hit one site and not another. They might even hit an adjoining county.

Columbus City for example has an entire set just for them. County on another set of sites.

 

[hill]

Also some radio users came roam statewide and being able to use their radios and talkgroups in the whole state.

Other users that have more limited areas of responsibility may have radios only able to use certain radio sites.

The administrators of the system need to ensure users arn't hogging up system resources by affiliating with too many sites and requiring a nd using a frequency at them.

 

[BinaryMode]

Just program all the sites that you can get a good signal on in your area. The control channels and the voice channels then the talk groups you want to hear.