FCC question

[DaveNF2G]

jeatock is correct and what he says has a much wider application in Public Safety.

Everything that might be done in a disaster must be practiced to the extent it is relevant to day-to-day operations. It goes beyond using codes every day and then trying to switch to plain language during a major incident. It also involves use of equipment.

Particularly relevant to this discussion is making the radios do what they can do on a regular basis. If you need to use a function that you have only seen months ago in training in the heat of a major incident, then either your disaster communications plan needs revision to remove unfamiliar procedures, or (more likely) your daily operational procedures need modification. (Or maybe your radios need to be set up differently.)

 

[902]

A few codes have been retained, for officer safety.

Some of that could work, especially if there's department policy to call the officer before giving information. There are other more effective ways of conveying duress, though. I'm not going to go into the details, but sometimes it's more of how something is said than the content of what is said.

Particularly relevant to this discussion is making the radios do what they can do on a regular basis. If you need to use a function that you have only seen months ago in training in the heat of a major incident, then either your disaster communications plan needs revision to remove unfamiliar procedures, or (more likely) your daily operational procedures need modification. (Or maybe your radios need to be set up differently.)

This was my entire argument during the "gateway" fad. I had consultants who easily made three times what I did swoop into my job to tell me all my region's problems would be solved by going out and buying a matrix box and plugging this frequency into that frequency and so on. In 2004, I was on a National Guard exercise where they trucked in vendors, outside agencies (from half-way across the country), and state and local assets. Nobody was in charge, it was a "y'all come!" event. So, the "bookmobiles" (my pet term for fancy command posts) all came in and parked. At 1000 hrs, the exercise commenced and everybody turned on what they had. The ping-ponging between frequencies boggled the mind! Someone keyed up on ICALL and brought up ITAC 2, ITAC3, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE VHF INTEROPERABILITY FREQUENCIES(!!!!!), two or three UHF ones, a bunch of FRS channels, and got some Nextel beeps thrown in. It ping-ponged back and forth for minutes. People were dumbfounded and speechless. It became the dictionary definition of Charlie Foxtrot.

(Eleven years later, I still don't know if this was in fact the objective of the exercise and if we were all set up, or if there was no direction because there was an assumption that everyone knew what they were doing.)

To add to my disdain for these things, the local fire chiefs each bought them so that they would not have to change VHF channels. In most cases, the frequencies were so close to each other that they desensed the other radio (and it was all VHF... just change the darned channel knob!). In other cases, one transmission went out over (and tied up) several other talkpaths that were used for other zones of the operation.

Point is that an acute incident is no time to find out that the expensive enhancement device destroys communication better than it facilitates it because it only comes out of the box every other year.

Since then, the COM-L program has come out, and the tactical interoperability plan vests delegated authority of the IC in the COM-L to establish a plan and, if need be, order a resource to be shut off. They also migrated to a different type of radio system.

Still, if no one trains on it, it's just not going to get used. If someone pulls it out of the box right there, it could hurt more than help.

 

[bravo14]

My area doesn't use plain talk as of yet. My are each PD uses different 10 codes and signals. I can't keep up with them it gets confusing.

 

[jeatock]

... the local fire chiefs each bought them so that they would not have to change VHF channels. In most cases, the frequencies were so close to each other that they desensed the other radio (and it was all VHF... just change the darned channel knob!). In other cases, one transmission went out over (and tied up) several other talkpaths that were used for other zones of the operation.

A prime example of vendor's stock dividends and "US vs. THEM" mentality driving incident communication systems - instead of cooperation, training, common sense planning and simple engineering. "It is only taxpayer dollars. Technology solves everything and our folks deserve the latest," they will claim, closing their eyes and chanting "More-newer always more-better" over and over.

Still, if no one trains on it, it's just not going to get used. If someone pulls it out of the box right there, it could hurt more than help.

Training ... the root of all evil. "That will never happen here." Or "Yeah, we sat through the PowerPoint but never practiced." Or "It's been a year and I don't remember if channel 3 is ISPERN or IREACH." Or even worse "We never do it and It's unusual and outside our comfort zone. We're busy so WE will stay on OUR private channel and have the dispatchers relay information to THEM until Hizzonner makes us change."

Politicos and managers who have never smelled the smoke forget that the outcome of most incidents is determined in the first hour. That's long over before Hizzonner remembers this is a special incident that requires a change from everyday to special talkpaths that nobody can remember, over equipment that will not be operating properly for another three hours. On 9/11, Flight 11 hit the North Tower first and 102 minutes later both buildings were down. Do the math.


The OP of this thread (and several other present threads) bring up the issue of plain English vs Secret Squirrel codes.

My contention is that if every communication is handled using plain English and all incident response is on regionally standard channels, the outcome will improve simply because it is done that way every day, and is second nature.

No one has to do anything special.

 

[ecps92]

Not the first time of "The Big One" locking up the world.

As you say, COM-L and COM-T have woken folks up, but there are still those who like to play with the Toys and Patch the World. When done Right (Boston Marathon Bombing) it works, when done Wrong (Demo's, Drills, Pentagon) it takes a long time to walk to each Condo and ask them to Shut-Down :roll:

Training, Training and then REAL Day-to-Day use of your Mutual Aid/Interops will prevent many of the issues presented
Knowing your Zones, being told the limitations and Practice. Boston UASI (9 Cities) has a channel plan with 25 Zones just on UHF and then add those who have 700 Mhz included....you might be lost on the big one, but drills like "Urban Shield" and regular planning for the Large Scale events help.

Boston regularly has what might be called, Pre-Planned Mass-Casualty Events, due to Weather and/or Crowd Sizes
a.) First Night
b.) Parades (St Patricks Day, Sporting Event Celebrations)
c.) Boston Marathon (spread over 26+ miles and runs thu 8 Cities/Towns and 3 Counties
d.) Independence Day and Day Prior Rehearse
e.) Tall Ships - every couple of years
and the from time-time events DNC, College Tournaments etc

Use of Large Scale Gatherings helps in the Prep and Normal use of your Toys

Some of that could work, especially if there's department policy to call the officer before giving information. There are other more effective ways of conveying duress, though. I'm not going to go into the details, but sometimes it's more of how something is said than the content of what is said.

This was my entire argument during the "gateway" fad. I had consultants who easily made three times what I did swoop into my job to tell me all my region's problems would be solved by going out and buying a matrix box and plugging this frequency into that frequency and so on. In 2004, I was on a National Guard exercise where they trucked in vendors, outside agencies (from half-way across the country), and state and local assets. Nobody was in charge, it was a "y'all come!" event. So, the "bookmobiles" (my pet term for fancy command posts) all came in and parked. At 1000 hrs, the exercise commenced and everybody turned on what they had. The ping-ponging between frequencies boggled the mind! Someone keyed up on ICALL and brought up ITAC 2, ITAC3, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE VHF INTEROPERABILITY FREQUENCIES(!!!!!), two or three UHF ones, a bunch of FRS channels, and got some Nextel beeps thrown in. It ping-ponged back and forth for minutes. People were dumbfounded and speechless. It became the dictionary definition of Charlie Foxtrot.

(Eleven years later, I still don't know if this was in fact the objective of the exercise and if we were all set up, or if there was no direction because there was an assumption that everyone knew what they were doing.)

To add to my disdain for these things, the local fire chiefs each bought them so that they would not have to change VHF channels. In most cases, the frequencies were so close to each other that they desensed the other radio (and it was all VHF... just change the darned channel knob!). In other cases, one transmission went out over (and tied up) several other talkpaths that were used for other zones of the operation.

Point is that an acute incident is no time to find out that the expensive enhancement device destroys communication better than it facilitates it because it only comes out of the box every other year.

Since then, the COM-L program has come out, and the tactical interoperability plan vests delegated authority of the IC in the COM-L to establish a plan and, if need be, order a resource to be shut off. They also migrated to a different type of radio system.

Still, if no one trains on it, it's just not going to get used. If someone pulls it out of the box right there, it could hurt more than help.

 

[mark40]

In public safety, and especially in law enforcement, the institutional mentality veers toward keeping secrets. The APCO codes became the seeds for a number of customized 10-codes that were more about keeping secrets than saving air time.

Spot on for the community I live in. The Public Safety department uses a custom 10-code. If you listen long enough you can figure most of them out (ex: "give me a 10-60 on my cell phone" etc, etc...) The sleuthing aspect makes in interesting. Reminds me of sleuthing down agencies/frequencies before the information age.

 

[n1das]

I'm not sure why this thread is posted in the Federal Monitoring Forum and doesn't pertain to FCC.

Regarding using plain English talk instead of 10-codes or other codes, one recommendation I recall reading was that the use of contractions should not be used. Common contractions such as "shouldn't" becomes "should not" (as in the previous sentence here), "don't" becomes "do not", "won't" becomes "will not", "can't" becomes "can not", etc. You get the idea.

I'm all for using plain English instead of codes. It make is easier for everybody involved to understand.

 

[SCPD]

Where I've worked and in everything I've read "plain English" is referred to as "Clear Text." Clear Text has a dozen or more recommended phrases such as "in service," "on scene," "available at scene," "responding," "request registration on _________," "enroute" and "your location?"

I have working experience with both the ten codes and "plain English" during a career with the U.S. Forest Service. When I started in the early 1970's we were using ten codes. When I transferred to California in 1981 clear text was used.

One law enforcement agency has used clear text for nearly 70 years and that is the Los Angeles Police Department. They have had times when they didn't have enough frequencies for the amount of traffic they had, a period that lasted from about 1960 to 1981. In spite of the high volume clear text worked well.

I've timed myself using clear text as opposed to ten codes and there is very little difference in the time needed. Some abbreviations are still used, such as UTL (unable to locate), ATC ( attempt to contact) and Code 3 (red light an siren). Most wildland agencies transmit 3 tones at the beginning of fire dispatches. Most agencies use this procedure to authorize Code 3 responses by fire resources.

I worked over 100 wildland fires during my career, some over 100,000 acres and some with 3,000 or more people assigned. I've observed the management of incidents in 8 states and have a good working knowledge of ICS. Fire departments, most especially those involved in wildland fire, are involved in mutual aid situations very frequently. Firefighters,on average, understand ICS and radio/frequency use far better than the average law enforcement officer. LEO's are involved in large scale mutual aid incidents far less. They are very reluctant to use ICS and integrate with the larger organization of the incident. They have trouble working under a non law enforcement incident commander.

A few of you have mentioned that using ten codes for everyday work and trying to switch to clear text for large, mutual aid incidents is very difficult. Based on my experience I agree with each of you. Procedures for large incidents and mutual aid have to be ingrained, similar to muscle memory so that the brain can move past the small stuff and concentrate on the whole picture.

A couple of people mentioned problems with interoperability and gateways. I've listened to a lot of big incidents where all the departments involved continue to use their daily radio designators and radio channels and continue to use their own dispatchers to relay traffic between different agencies. On wildland fires one dispatch center and resource ordering point is used and if a fire moves onto another jurisdiction in a major way a new dispatch centers takes over. Wildland fire has had interoperability since multiple channel radios became available and especially when programmable radios came into use. All of it is on VHF. In the western U.S. agencies that use UHF and 700/800 MHz systems carry VHF handhelds on a daily basis or have them available in their stations. If not the largest radio cache in the world provides huge numbers of handhelds to issue.

The use of the ICS took 5-15 years to become second nature for all agencies and departments, depending on how open minded and progressive they were. Fire departments in the eastern U.S. have not fully embraced it, many preferring to stay with tradition. It might take twice the time or more for law enforcement to use it effectively. I sometimes wonder if it will ever happen.