FirstNet Article from Cincinnati

[belvdr]

Saw the following article posted from a Cincinnati:

New program keeps first responders connected when cell service is overwhelmed

First responders have a new cellular service specifically for them. It is designed to keep them connected with each other and the public as much as possible, especially in critical times of need.

www.wcpo.com

However, the following quote confused me:

How does First Net work? It's an app on first responders phones' that turns off their regular service cuing the prioritized cell service to activate.

"It actually has its own radio spectrum frequency that allows us to operate independently from the public," Knapp explained.

FirstNet Assist is a standard app for iOS or Android, so no unique phones are required. I assumed FirstNet required specific radios to utilize the service. I'm guessing the article is just not really clear on the difference between the app and FirstNet.

Thoughts from someone who knows how this works?

 

[mmckenna]

Saw the following article posted from a Cincinnati:

New program keeps first responders connected when cell service is overwhelmed

First responders have a new cellular service specifically for them. It is designed to keep them connected with each other and the public as much as possible, especially in critical times of need.

www.wcpo.com

News media does such a poor job with this stuff.

However, the following quote confused me:FirstNet Assist is a standard app for iOS or Android, so no unique phones are required. I assumed FirstNet required specific radios to utilize the service.

In general terms, not doing a deep dive here:
The phone needs to be on the FirstNet network.
Not really 'special radios'. FirstNet can use Band 14 (700MHz), and just about any cell phone made in the last couple of years will support that.
Most AT&T consumer customers can access Band 14, that's part of the deal. AT&T can use it for what they want, as long as public safety can utilize it where needed.
But, keep in mind that FirstNet does not just run on Band 14, it uses the entire AT&T network.

I'm guessing the article is just not really clear on the difference between the app and FirstNet.

The app just gives some access to their FirstNet account. I can do the same thing via their web portal. It allows agencies/users to request getting bumped up priority. FirstNet has several levels of priority and that is assigned based on the user. The new article made it sound like it was the app that made FirstNet work, or somehow magically made a non FirstNet phone work.

 

[belvdr]

News media does such a poor job with this stuff.

Thanks for the response. This all makes sense. To be fair, the fire official was quoted saying they had an independent frequency.

In general terms, not doing a deep dive here:
The phone needs to be on the FirstNet network.
Not really 'special radios'. FirstNet can use Band 14 (700MHz), and just about any cell phone made in the last couple of years will support that.
Most AT&T consumer customers can access Band 14, that's part of the deal. AT&T can use it for what they want, as long as public safety can utilize it where needed.
But, keep in mind that FirstNet does not just run on Band 14, it uses the entire AT&T network.

The app just gives some access to their FirstNet account. I can do the same thing via their web portal. It allows agencies/users to request getting bumped up priority. FirstNet has several levels of priority and that is assigned based on the user. The new article made it sound like it was the app that made FirstNet work, or somehow magically made a non FirstNet phone work.

So, FirstNet isn't about a typical two-way radio that can operate across AT&T's network. It's always a WWAN device (phone, tablet, laptop, etc)? I'm guessing it prioritizes by IMEI, correct?

 

[littona]

Thanks for the response. This all makes sense. To be fair, the fire official was quoted saying they had an independent frequency.
So, FirstNet isn't about a typical two-way radio that can operate across AT&T's network. It's always a WWAN device (phone, tablet, laptop, etc)? I'm guessing it prioritizes by IMEI, correct?

That's where things get confusing. There's still a radio component to FirstNet in some areas. A good example is the State of Iowa's ISICS system. It's a statewide radio system that was built mostly by AT&T. Subscribers can use traditional radios or FirstNet phones. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. In my opinion, phones are better suited to the occasional user.

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks for the response. This all makes sense. To be fair, the fire official was quoted saying they had an independent frequency.
So, FirstNet isn't about a typical two-way radio that can operate across AT&T's network. It's always a WWAN device (phone, tablet, laptop, etc)? I'm guessing it prioritizes by IMEI, correct?

FirstNet is a cellular service that runs on top of the AT&T wireless network. I do believe it uses the IMEI to assign priority. I have it on my phone and it is tied to that phone. It shows "FIrstNet" up on the top of my screen where my wife's phone shows "AT&T".
The priority thing gives users a priority level on the network. My FirstNet phone would have priority over my wife's AT&T phone. Our officer's FirstNet phones would have priority over my FirstNet phone.

FirstNet received 700MHz spectrum, AT&T added that to some of their sites. But FirstNet can run on any of AT&T's spectrum/sites. FirstNet is essentially a Mobile Virtual Network Operator that runs on top of the AT&T network. FirstNet has their own LTE cores, but those are tied into the AT&T LTE cores (and before anyone asks, FirstNet absolutely works on 5G….)

Some two way radios, like the Motorola APX-8000 and the Harris XL-200 line have the ability to install a SIM card in them. That will let them connect to the cellular network (Verizon or AT&T/FN) and use data. That data can be used to haul voice back to a gateway at the P25 core for their radio system. We played with this for a while and are considering adding it. Our officers could take the radios anywhere they had FirstNet/AT&T coverage and talk even though they were WAY outside our coverage area.

 

[belvdr]

FirstNet is a cellular service that runs on top of the AT&T wireless network. I do believe it uses the IMEI to assign priority. I have it on my phone and it is tied to that phone. It shows "FIrstNet" up on the top of my screen where my wife's phone shows "AT&T".
The priority thing gives users a priority level on the network. My FirstNet phone would have priority over my wife's AT&T phone. Our officer's FirstNet phones would have priority over my FirstNet phone.

FirstNet received 700MHz spectrum, AT&T added that to some of their sites. But FirstNet can run on any of AT&T's spectrum/sites. FirstNet is essentially a Mobile Virtual Network Operator that runs on top of the AT&T network. FirstNet has their own LTE cores, but those are tied into the AT&T LTE cores (and before anyone asks, FirstNet absolutely works on 5G….)

Some two way radios, like the Motorola APX-8000 and the Harris XL-200 line have the ability to install a SIM card in them. That will let them connect to the cellular network (Verizon or AT&T/FN) and use data. That data can be used to haul voice back to a gateway at the P25 core for their radio system. We played with this for a while and are considering adding it. Our officers could take the radios anywhere they had FirstNet/AT&T coverage and talk even though they were WAY outside our coverage area.

That all makes sense, thanks. The article was simply confusing, at best.

 

[mmckenna]

That all makes sense, thanks. The article was simply confusing, at best.

Yeah, I work with this stuff and that article confused me. Not 100% sure it was the medias fault, seemed like the users didn't have a firm grip on it either, which is usually the case.

 

[GTR8000]

Some two way radios, like the Motorola APX-8000 and the Harris XL-200 line have the ability to install a SIM card in them.

Minor clarification, the APX 8000 is not LTE capable; you're confusing it with the APX NEXT series. The traditional APX models that are capable of WiFi (6x00BN, 8x00) access SmartConnect using that method.

 

[mmckenna]

Minor clarification, the APX 8000 is not LTE capable; you're confusing it with the APX NEXT series. The traditional APX models that are capable of WiFi (6x00BN, 8x00) access SmartConnect using that method.

Thanks, I should have remembered that, just went through that entire thing with comparing APX-8000, APX-Next and Harris.

 

[mrsvensven]

A decade or more ago when FirstNet was first conceived, it had not been invented yet. All anyone knew is that is was going to be a "public safety broadband network". It was commonly thought that FirstNet was going to be some kind of radio system and a likely replacement for LMR as we knew it. Over time as the contract was awarded to AT&T and FirstNet was actually built, it turned out to just be another cell phone company. On the back end, there are certain priority and preemption features built into the network, but to most end users, a FirstNet cell phone doesn't operate any differently than a cell phone on the Verizon, AT&T, or any other network.

Unfortunately, there is still a bit of confusion. Firstnet never really completely shook the image of being some kind of radio system or a replacement for LMR. There are still a lot of people out there that don't realize it's just another cell phone company.

(I'm aware that I oversimplified things. I just don't think getting into all the little details is relevant to the current thread.)

 

[Trbogeek]

News media does such a poor job with this stuff.



In general terms, not doing a deep dive here:
The phone needs to be on the FirstNet network.
Not really 'special radios'. FirstNet can use Band 14 (700MHz), and just about any cell phone made in the last couple of years will support that.
Most AT&T consumer customers can access Band 14, that's part of the deal. AT&T can use it for what they want, as long as public safety can utilize it where needed.
But, keep in mind that FirstNet does not just run on Band 14, it uses the entire AT&T network.



The app just gives some access to their FirstNet account. I can do the same thing via their web portal. It allows agencies/users to request getting bumped up priority. FirstNet has several levels of priority and that is assigned based on the user. The new article made it sound like it was the app that made FirstNet work, or somehow magically made a non FirstNet phone work.

Has there been any fallout from the wide spread AT&T outage today? Many reported FirstNet outages. How severe was the impact?

 

[lenk911]

A good example is the State of Iowa's ISICS system. It's a statewide radio system that was built mostly by AT&T.

That is not correct. Iowa contracted with Motorola to build the first phase of the system which is basically a 700 MHZ P25 Phase 2 mobile trunk system. Portable operation is effectively where you can get it unless you use vehicular repeaters. System is basically about one site per county--some more some less. Locals can enhance the system to a level of portable on the belt operation in defined building densities on their dime. First Net may be a renter on some of the sites.

Many of the larger population counties have chosen to join the cooperative SARA system which is designed specifically for their needs. Generally portable on belt in a minimum of low density buildings. SARA is interconnected to ISICS.

 

[mmckenna]

Has there been any fallout from the wide spread AT&T outage today? Many reported FirstNet outages. How severe was the impact?

I was getting outage alerts from FirstNet all day. My FirstNet phone has been working without issue. No idea what others are experiencing.

 

[mmckenna]

Has there been any fallout from the wide spread AT&T outage today? Many reported FirstNet outages. How severe was the impact?

AT&T suffers extended nationwide outage, prioritizes FirstNet restoration - Urgent Comms

AT&T today suffered a nationwide outage of its wireless services that included interruption to the FirstNet nationwide public-safety broadband network (NPSBN), which the carrier giant has been building and maintaining for almost seven years. During the early hours this morning, AT&T customers...

urgentcomm.com

 

[mmckenna]

My money is on a Cisco router update, they seem to be taking a page from the Motorola/Harris/Uniden playbook and using customers to beta test things:

AT&T nationwide outage caused by software update, not malicious intent: Sources

A temporary network disruption that affected AT&T customers in the U.S. Thursday was caused by a software update gone wrong, according to preliminary information from two sources familiar with the situation.

abc7chicago.com

 

[GTR8000]

But...but...LTE is going to completely replace traditional LMR within a few years, according to some "experts"!

LTE/FirstNet/Frontline absolutely has its place in today's world, in particular to supplement or extend RF coverage, but sorry at this stage of the game it's not quite ready to fully supplant a properly designed, constructed, and maintained LMR system for mission critical public safety comms, despite what some of the cheerleaders/fanboys claim. This morning's outage was a stark reminder of that.

Oh and to answer the question, there were public safety comm outages in Westchester County, NY as a result of the AT&T issues this morning. Unfortunately there are some agencies that are relying a little too heavily on FirstNet in lieu of proper RF coverage, or are using FirstNet to link critical infrastructure instead of using microwave or even commercial fiber. Scary stuff.

 

[GTR8000]

And before anyone gets all defensive about my post...I'm not dismissing the usefulness of LTE. I'm simply stating that maybe we pump the brakes a bit on the rush to toss all the "antiquated" radios in the dumpster. I think an often overlooked (or ignored) fact is that FirstNet and Frontline run over the same AT&T and VZW infrastructure and backhaul as the commercial (public) LTE networks. The cores may be separate, they may provide priority/preemption for those subscribers...but at the end of the day, you are at the mercy of commercial carriers and how well they maintain their equipment at the local level. Or in this case, a software update that negatively affected the entire network.

At the very least, ask yourself this: If FirstNet were truly segregated from the rest of AT&T's network, how did a software update deal a blow to both FirstNet and the public network simultaneously? Not exactly confidence inspiring if you've decided to rely completely on LTE, huh?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Snip

At the very least, ask yourself this: If FirstNet were truly segregated from the rest of AT&T's network, how did a software update deal a blow to both FirstNet and the public network simultaneously? Not exactly confidence inspiring if you've decided to rely completely on LTE, huh?

Yeah that came to mind as well. You would hope those systems would be as isolated from each other as thoroughly as possible and that Firstnet receives updates only after vetted on the commercial side. Seems that the two systems are intermingled.

 

[mmckenna]

I've seen a few maps on line that showed pockets of outage based on the number of complaints.
That either suggests that many didn't notice/didn't complain, or that it was not a true systemwide outage.

Makes me think that it was a router/radio issue. Like they tried to upgrade some equipment and it failed.

Will be interesting to see if the NPSBN guys at the .gov will start asking questions.

AT&T wireline lost a bunch of fiber many years ago in my area due to two very specific locations of vandalism/sabotage. It didn't take long for public safety agencies to grab AT&T by their figurative collar and ask some hard questions. Shortly after that, a lot of new fiber was laid to provide more redundancy. For some reason AT&T thought that putting operational and protection circuits in the same physical cable was "good enough".
In other words, AT&T getting a black eye from this will probably result in some good changes to their network topology/configuration.

 

[alcahuete]

No outages for me here in LA County, even though it's showing on the map. Was using the phone all day.