FirstNet vs P25 Implementation

[krokus]

All Verizon has to do is provision their MME's to support preemption capability to compete. I can't even think of how large of a disaster would have to be where Public Safety would need to enact the pre-emption. All the carriers have lots of capacity in their radio networks and adding more every day.

Any time there is any sort of semi-major event, the cell sites in the area are swamped, if they are even functional. They are not to be relied upon for critical, especially time sensitive, communications.

This lack of reliability is why I have to keep harping on the people in my FD to not rely on their phone apps, instead of their pagers.

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[NavyBOFH]

All AT&T customers with 700MHz capable LTE phones will be able to access Band 14 when space is available. If you are not running a FirstNet SIM, you'll get kicked off due to preemption.



Verizon is making a lot of noise about FirstNet. They are trying (and in many cases can) meet the same service levels as FirstNet and claim better overall coverage, without all the government funding.



We're looking at FirstNet, especially since the negotiated prices are pretty decent. If that forces Verizon to match prices, it'll be good for everyone.

I am not sure how much I can disclose except to say that Verizon is already formally talking to us about keeping us as a customer and matching FirstNet capabilities - and they’re already matching them on price. For us it includes phones and MiFi units for the service and pricing.

We have a dozen FirstNet devices out there but we haven’t cared much for the ePTT and the phone service is still lacking compared to our existing Verizon coverage even after their big presentation of “we just added dozens new sites to make the state FirstNet ready”.

 

[n1das]

I am not sure how much I can disclose except to say that Verizon is already formally talking to us about keeping us as a customer and matching FirstNet capabilities - and they’re already matching them on price. For us it includes phones and MiFi units for the service and pricing.

We have a dozen FirstNet devices out there but we haven’t cared much for the ePTT and the phone service is still lacking compared to our existing Verizon coverage even after their big presentation of “we just added dozens new sites to make the state FirstNet ready”.

Have anybody in your organization tried ESChat yet? I'm curious about how well that works compared to AT&T EPTT. I would love to be able to use ESChat instead of AT&T EPTT but ESChat is not available to individual consumers like me.

www.ESChat.com

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Have anybody in your organization tried ESChat yet? I'm curious about how well that works compared to AT&T EPTT. I would love to be able to use ESChat instead of AT&T EPTT but ESChat is not available to individual consumers like me.

www.ESChat.com

The nice thing about ESChat is the ability to integrate to P25's ISSI and DMR's network equivalent (can't think of the name at the moment).

 

[mmckenna]

I am not sure how much I can disclose except to say that Verizon is already formally talking to us about keeping us as a customer and matching FirstNet capabilities - and they’re already matching them on price. For us it includes phones and MiFi units for the service and pricing.

That's pretty much what I'm hearing.

We have a dozen FirstNet devices out there but we haven’t cared much for the ePTT and the phone service is still lacking compared to our existing Verizon coverage even after their big presentation of “we just added dozens new sites to make the state FirstNet ready”.

We won't be using it as a replacement for LMR radios, so the PTT set up times aren't a concern. As for phones, likely the officers will get whatever phones from the carrier they choose, but coverage varies around here.

 

[NavyBOFH]

That is our ultimate goal as well, which is why I cannot attest to the ePTT usage. In fact I think when we issued out the phones we didn’t even bother setting up any ePTT services or apps and were more worried about real-life coverage and call quality. Part of that dozen was 2 Cradlepoint modems and a couple MiFi units as well.

We are much more interested in the data side since in a disaster we want to be able to take a Cradlepoint and ASA firewall to a Troop Office or TOC and plug it into our router to restore some NCIC or other LE data needs or to have a Cradlepoint in a command truck that will work when needed.

It’s HIGH optimism but we are hoping it can (for 90% of contingencies) avoid the need to get a VSAT terminal and dish. I set one up for emergency management around the time Irma was rolling through and with the satellite issues over the past year we were seeing only half the bandwidth and double the latency that we used to see - so we pray a Cradlepoint and preemptive access will help, especially with Verizon AND AT&T’s promise to be able to roll out mobile cell sites in those dire emergencies.

 

[n1das]

HowardForums Band 14 sightings thread:
https://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1905058-Band-14-Sightings-Thread

AT&T is broadcasting a dual-PLMN now, with 313-100 only accessible with a FirstNet SIM.

 

[mmckenna]

That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

My Sonim XP8 is Band 14 capable. I assume I will be limited to a maximum of +23dBm transmit power on Band 14 whereas FirstNet users will be allowed to run up to the maximum transmit power of +31dBm. Is this correct?? Having 4900 mAh of battery in the XP8 is turning out to be real nice.

I'm at APCO and there was a talk on this.

Band 14 is going to get to use +31dB, which will have some big benefits. Increased coverage is one. Some testing in College Station, TX showed 30 mile range from a 31dBm high power user equipment. They think with the base stations set up to allow it, they can push up closer to 50 miles under the right conditions.

Increased upload speeds, since the limitations with LTE tends to be user device power. That was tagged as a key point for public safety users, where uploading video will be more important than some teenager downloading video.

"more balanced coverage" of the network.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I'm at APCO and there was a talk on this.

Band 14 is going to get to use +31dB, which will have some big benefits. Increased coverage is one. Some testing in College Station, TX showed 30 mile range from a 31dBm high power user equipment. They think with the base stations set up to allow it, they can push up closer to 50 miles under the right conditions.

Increased upload speeds, since the limitations with LTE tends to be user device power. That was tagged as a key point for public safety users, where uploading video will be more important than some teenager downloading video.

"more balanced coverage" of the network.

Still special use cases considering that will require actual Band 14 sites to be operational. When it comes to FirstNet subscribers roaming across the regular AT&T network, they are still going to be at the mercy of existing site design (down-tilted sectors). That's really quite a bit of some marketing voodoo if you ask me.

Like you said, with 8 dB more output power, the handset is potentially going to be consuming roughly 9 times as much power. At that point, are there really any true gains over what has become proper, engineered coverage site designs? Of course, we are assuming that transmit power won't be adaptive (which will likely be a feature that is used to conserve battery) so this all theoretical worst case.

 

[mmckenna]

Still special use cases considering that will require actual Band 14 sites to be operational. When it comes to FirstNet subscribers roaming across the regular AT&T network, they are still going to be at the mercy of existing site design (down-tilted sectors). That's really quite a bit of some marketing voodoo if you ask me.

Excellent point, and they touched on that. Accessing band 14 is up to AT&T, and I think it's going to be a few years before the majority of us see that.

For non band 14, yes, consumer levels. The only place there will be an benefit is off sites with band 14 capabilities.

AT&T has a good smoke screen going, a lot of vague ideas about when band 14 will be rolled out, what sites get it, which don't.

Where agencies have some power is to push AT&T/FirstNet on this before signing any contracts. Requiring build out of band 14 in their jurisdictions would be a good point to bargain with. Meantime, Verizon can offer similar services at compatible prices, and in a lot of places, they have better coverage.

Like you said, with 8 dB more output power, the handset is potentially going to be consuming roughly 9 times as much power. At that point, are there really any true gains over what has become proper, engineered coverage site designs? Of course, we are assuming that transmit power won't be adaptive (which will likely be a feature that is used to conserve battery) so this all theoretical worst case.

Yep.
But where this is being pushed is for mobile hotspots. An LTE radio in the car with a WiFi hotspot, good antennas, etc. That'll make sense for IC type applications or a mobile terminal, but not for an officer walking around in a building away from their car.



On a different direction,
CBRS/3.5GHz looks like it might have some promises for public safety use. As long as the FCC doesn't roll over for the cell carriers.

 

[troy201]

FirstNet SIMS

It seems there are still issues with FirstNet SIMS, I signed up at the Local AT&T store this week and the process took over 90 Minutes. I have a S9+ Unlocked and the FirstNet Sim would only show roaming with no APN. They tried to manually add thre APN to no avail. FirstNet support told the store rep they are having issues with the FirstNet sims and to use an AT&T sim on the FirstNet account. She mentioned all the priorities and B14 is set on the back end anyway. So for now I have an AT&T SIm here in the Greenville SC and see B14 regularly. Being that I have a unlocked phone, no VOLTE or HD, not sure I will see that at all. By the way they do run a Credit check for the account if you are paying the bill for your FirstNet service.

 

[ts548]

I just picked up a Sonim XP8 on FirstNet here in Asheville NC. So far it hasn’t been bad considering Verizon is king around here.

 

[HM1529]

So, these Sonim XP8's seem to be reliable? A few years ago, my office moved to all Sonim XP Strike phones. They were the absolute worst cell phones we have ever had to carry in my 19 years working there. They would reboot all day long, freeze randomly, sounded awful, etc. The best thing about them was their near indestructibility which just led to people hurling them when they wouldn't work. I would be hard pressed to convince my business manager to ever buy a Sonim phone again, they were that bad of an experience.

 

[ts548]

I have only had mine a few days so can’t really tell you if they are still that way. I can tell you that it is built like a tank. It hasn’t reset, everything works like it’s suppose to and the battery life with the 4900mah battery is awesome.

 

[APX7500X2]

I agree with that. AT&T has some gaping holes out in my area, Hopefully FirstNet will force AT&T into improving coverage.

AT&T Is using your tax money to get as good as Verizon..So soon your taxes will make the coverage on AT&T much better and they can make tons more $$$

So its a win win...They give better coverage and make more money and we pay for it

 

[Thunderknight]

AT&T Is using your tax money to get as good as Verizon..So soon your taxes will make the coverage on AT&T much better and they can make tons more $$$

Well only sort-of. FirstNet did give them around $7B for network construction, but that money came from spectrum auctions that other carriers bid on. Of course that is money that could have gone to the treasury, so I suppose it could have offset tax dollars. But it's not technically accurate to say that AT&T is directly using tax money.

 

[wa8pyr]

Well only sort-of. FirstNet did give them around $7B for network construction, but that money came from spectrum auctions that other carriers bid on. Of course that is money that could have gone to the treasury, so I suppose it could have offset tax dollars. But it's not technically accurate to say that AT&T is directly using tax money.

Also, Verizon isn't under any legal obligation to provide ruthless preemption and other capabilities which FirstNet is required to provide by virtue of their contract with the government and receipt of government money. You might get it with Verizon, or you might not.

According to the most recent information, AT&T will be using Band 14 frequencies only to add sites where there are no existing AT&T sites, and if there are no available cellular frequencies.

We've had FirstNet devices at work for a couple of months now, and so far I have no complaints other than a couple of areas of slightly sketchy coverage (surprising in a major metro area) which are being addressed. . . or so I've been told.