florida scanner law question

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MichaelN

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I think you may be wrong.
You did need it for Broadcast, Marine, and Aviation radio, but I don't ever recall needing it for CB.

I would think not, since it is not " valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission"

Perhaps someone else remembers this license for CBs back in the mid/late 70's.

N_Jay...actually it was issued by the FCC and was assigned a station number. Mine was KJC9153 I believe.

But I'm thinking the law pertains to a Ham Radio Operators license which was different. I am just curious as to other interpretations.

Thanks,
Mike
 
N

N_Jay

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There were CB licenses, (which also were (are) not Amateur licenses, but you did not need a restricted radio telephone license to use the CB service. (you needed a CB Radio Service license.)

We are not dealing with "interpretations", we are dealing with "definitions"!
 

MichaelN

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N_Jay,

After doing some digging on the web I found what you are referring to and I agree, you didn't need a RR license for CB. I've been searching hi and lo for my original license with no luck...I wanted to see what it said. My comment about interpretations was referring to the Florida (or any state) Scanner Laws, not the type of license one needs for CB. Perhaps that what you meant as well. I'll take it that you did.

Thanks for your comments.

Mike
 
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N_Jay

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Yep, the law in FL SAYS "valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission".
That is very specific.

I also have/have had; RR, CB, GMRS, GROL, and Amateur.
Each is specific.
 

n1das

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Yep, the law in FL SAYS "valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission".
That is very specific.

I also have/have had; RR, CB, GMRS, GROL, and Amateur.
Each is specific.

According to the wording in FL law, having a valid GMRS license issued by the FCC should be enough cover you if you're not a licensed ham. A GMRS license techically IS a radio station license too.
 

N4DES

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Thr FCC used to issue station licenses for amateur radio operations, but this is no longer.
It is a leftover from a prior federal licensing practice.
 
N

N_Jay

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According to the wording in FL law, having a valid GMRS license issued by the FCC should be enough cover you if you're not a licensed ham. A GMRS license techically IS a radio station license too.


Has it been verified that the intent (or common legal understanding) is that it covers ALL FCC station licenses or only Amateur licenses, (as it is often read)?
 

kayleesdad

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that wording appears to have been around for a long time. it would take some looking to see if anyone has argued the distinction in a court case somewhere in FL. below is one Attorney General opinion (of only two opinions on the statute) under the old statute and it doesn't delve into distinctions of types of FCC licenses, just, "valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission." i'll have to check and see what the ol' gmrs license says on it, but i carry the "amatuer radio license" to be sure i'm in the clear.




Number: AGO 74-369
Date: December 4, 1974
Subject: Monitoring police radio frequencies


074-369 -- December 4, 1974

LAW ENFORCEMENT MONITORING POLICE RADIO FREQUENCIES

To: Robert J. Cotron, Chief of Police, Melbourne

Prepared by: Richard W. Prospect, Assistant Attorney General

QUESTIONS:

1. What facts must be established to prove the element of installation under s. 843.16, F. S.?

2. Does a violation of s. 843.16, F. S., occur when the holder of a valid amateur radio operator license installs in his place of business radio equipment as contemplated by the statute with the volume turned high enough so that customers can listen to official police communications?

3. Is a holder of an appropriate license from the F.C.C. authorized to install the type of receiving set contemplated in more than one business location or vehicle under a single license, or must a separate license be obtained for each business or each vehicle?

SUMMARY:

Under s. 843.16, F. S., the word "install" as used in the statute, applies to a vehicular installation when the unit is connected to and dependent upon the electrical power system of the vehicle; and the unit is connected to an external antenna capable of receiving police broadcasts. A holder of a valid amateur radio operator's license issued by the Federal Communications Commission does not violate this statute when he is using equipment contemplated in the statute installed in his business establishment with the volume turned high enough so that his customers can hear the broadcasts. Under the rules and regulations of the Federal Communications Commission, a licensed operator is not required to secure a separate license for each business or vehicular installation.

The pertinent provisions of s. 843.16, F. S., read:

No person, firm or corporation shall install in any motor vehicle or business establishment, except emergency vehicles as herein defined, or places established by municipal, county, state, or federal authority for governmental purposes, any frequency modulation radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the federal communications commission to police or law enforcement officers of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies.

In regard to question 1, my legal research reveals no specific judicial interpretation relative to the meaning of "installation" as used in the statute. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary generally defines the word "install" as "to establish in an indicated place, condition, or status; to set up for use or service." [Page] 598 (1st ed. 1973). I have reviewed many similar constructions of the word and perhaps that which is most applicable to this issue is the one given me by an engineer of seventeen years' experience with the Federal Communications Commission. His technical assessment of radio installation would be one which requires the particular unit--whether receiver, transmitter, or transceiver--to be connected to a power source and have need of an external antenna capable of rendering the unit functional.

Borrowing from his expertise, I would be of the opinion that the elements of installation as contemplated by the statute would be present in a motor vehicle when: The radio unit is in some way connected to and dependent upon the vehicle's electrical power system; and the radio unit is connected to an independent and external antenna capable of receiving the broadcasts of law enforcement agencies.

As to the installation of such equipment in a business establishment, the above-mentioned requirements would likewise apply except that the connection to a power source could be accomplished merely by plugging the unit into an electrical wall outlet.

In regard to question 2, the statute is obviously silent as to the circumstances which you describe. In fact, subsection 843.16(3), F. S., specifically exempts application of the statute to holders of a valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission. Generally speaking, the enactment, being a criminal statute, must be strictly construed. Watson v. Stone, 4 So.2d 700 (Fla. 1941). Being bound by a narrow construction, I would be of the opinion that in the situation embraced in your question, a violation of this statute would not occur since in order to run afoul of its provisions one would have to: Install the equipment and tune it to the police broadcasts. In this particular situation the owner, having a valid license, is exempt from its application, and those customers merely hearing the broadcast have neither installed the equipment nor tuned it to the prohibited frequencies. Accordingly, your question is answered in the negative.

In regard to question 3, I have been advised by the Federal Communications Commission that a holder of a valid amateur radio operator license need not, under federal rules and regulations, secure a separate license for each installation of a radio unit.

Florida Toll Free: 1-866-966-7226Copyright © 2008 State of FloridaPrivacy Policy
 

kayleesdad

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Well, the ol' gmrs license does say "Radio Station Authorization" with "Federal Communications Commission Wireless Communications Bureau" at the top and a named "Licensee" on it and my gmrs call sign.

I guess it all comes down to how you read, "valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission".......does the right side of the "or" mean "valid amatuer radio station license" or does it mean "any station license". Well, I haven't found a definitive statement on this one, but other florida statutes worded like this have been interpreted to generate differing valid opinions. I can't see someone figuring this distinction out in the middle of a ticket situation, so if they want to take away your scanner its probably gone and you'll have to argue the point later. the gmrs license could be persuasive on the fly, though.
 

sgtgraham

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The prior Attorney General opinions on installations are moot because the law was amended in 2008 to read "install or transport" in a vehicle. So even if it's a portable & shut off it is still a violation. However, it has been my experience that persons cited under this law are not otherwise law abiding citizens. A sheriff's office in SW FL arrested someone under this statute about 2 weeks ago, but there were other circumstances which brought the offender under law enforcement scrutiny, if you know what I mean. Amatuer Radio license means just that; Novice, Technician, General, Advanced and Amateur Extra class licensees.
http://leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0843/SEC16.HTM&Title=->2008->Ch0843->Section%2016#0843.16
 

NNJradio

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I think many of you are missing the intent and message of the law. It is designed not to harass some scanner user although in technical violation, it is designed to keep criminals from using scanners/radio devices during the commission of crimes.
Now that said, don't be the jerk who just has to go to a scene of police activity and have the unit in the car turned up and see if you want to test the LEO and the law. Remember even if you should win you would lose. Someone has/had to pay for an attorney. Use common sense.:lol:
 

KE4RWS

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Scanner Laws and Newer Technology

I wonder how the interpretation would be in a situation where you were siting in your car in a park listening to the scanner using your laptop with a link to your brand new PSR-600 via the web? This situation can also extend to sites where individuals provide an audio feed of LE traffic over the web. A short time ago cellular-based web access was on the drawing board but hadn't really hit the open market until the past couple years so this issue wasn't actually an issue to be considered at the time.

Technically the "device" in the car isn't a scanner at all, but merely a computer system. The actual scanner in this situation is miles away and isn't in your physical possession. Since your sitting still in a park and not operating the vehicle, the usual "distraction" laws wouldn't apply either.

Interesting situation here since this technology wasn't envisioned (or around) when the law was written. Technically you don't have a scanner in your possession, nor is there one mounted in the vehicle but you are in your car monitoring LE radio traffic nonetheless.

I'm sure, as time goes by, you will even be able to access your home scanner using a smart phone (BlackBerry, Iphone or more current technology), which will provide even more discreet monitoring of whatever the hell one wants using a BlueTooth or wired earpiece.


Randy
KE4RWS
 

khoelldobler

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I wonder how the interpretation would be in a situation where you were siting in your car in a park listening to the scanner using your laptop with a link to your brand new PSR-600 via the web? This situation can also extend to sites where individuals provide an audio feed of LE traffic over the web. A short time ago cellular-based web access was on the drawing board but hadn't really hit the open market until the past couple years so this issue wasn't actually an issue to be considered at the time.

Technically the "device" in the car isn't a scanner at all, but merely a computer system. The actual scanner in this situation is miles away and isn't in your physical possession. Since your sitting still in a park and not operating the vehicle, the usual "distraction" laws wouldn't apply either.

Interesting situation here since this technology wasn't envisioned (or around) when the law was written. Technically you don't have a scanner in your possession, nor is there one mounted in the vehicle but you are in your car monitoring LE radio traffic nonetheless.

I'm sure, as time goes by, you will even be able to access your home scanner using a smart phone (BlackBerry, Iphone or more current technology), which will provide even more discreet monitoring of whatever the hell one wants using a BlueTooth or wired earpiece.


Randy
KE4RWS


I often wondered how the law would pertain to someone, who, while driving thier car or work vehicle, were ever pulled over for something, and thier personal lap top or work lap top were "ON" and the lap top screen displayed the RR website and its LIVE STREAMING audio while LE conversations were active.... if the officer heard the lap top streaming the audio of his department or jurisdiction, would the officer accuse you of breaking the law. I would guess that since its just another method of monitoring the live audio, the driver of the vehicle would be liable for the infraction/ statute. Accessing ones scanner by electronic means to receive live streams of LE traffic/audio would constitute the breaking of the law... able to monitor live, from with-in the vehicle. Though its not a scanner, but a computer in this case, acting as the same means of monitoring live LE comms. There is not much difference between accessing the LE comms thru the computer OR a scanner, and same would hold true if someone purchased an old Motorola 2 way radio and had it programmed to active local PD freq's... if that old radio were in your vehicle and it were capable of monitoring LIVE LE comm's, one would probably be screwed.
 

ElroyJetson

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"...or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission."

Your general radiotelephone operator's license can be considered to be a station license.

Granted, this is playing games with the intent of the law but it is valid per the LETTER of the law as
the operative word in the phrase is OR.

The law does NOT state "A valid amateur radio operator's license or amateur radio station license..."
The OR provision can be, and IS, interpreted to mean any radio license issued by the FCC whether amateur or not.

In general, if you are not bothering anybody and not chasing accidents or crime scenes with the aid of
a scanner in your car, nobody's going to care or bother you. But having the amateur radio license
(Any class, Florida law makes no distinction on Amateur license classes) is the easiest and best way
to ensure that you're fully covered.

Elroy
 

ElroyJetson

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I often wondered how the law would pertain to someone, who, while driving thier car or work vehicle, were ever pulled over for something, and thier personal lap top or work lap top were "ON" and the lap top screen displayed the RR website and its LIVE STREAMING audio while LE conversations were active.... if the officer heard the lap top streaming the audio of his department or jurisdiction, would the officer accuse you of breaking the law. I would guess that since its just another method of monitoring the live audio, the driver of the vehicle would be liable for the infraction/ statute. Accessing ones scanner by electronic means to receive live streams of LE traffic/audio would constitute the breaking of the law... able to monitor live, from with-in the vehicle. Though its not a scanner, but a computer in this case, acting as the same means of monitoring live LE comms. There is not much difference between accessing the LE comms thru the computer OR a scanner, and same would hold true if someone purchased an old Motorola 2 way radio and had it programmed to active local PD freq's... if that old radio were in your vehicle and it were capable of monitoring LIVE LE comm's, one would probably be screwed.

It is not a frequency modulated radio receiver so adjusted or tuned as to receive radio traffic on frequencies assigned to law enforcement. It does not meet the fairly precise legal definition of
a scanner.

That's that.

Elroy
 

jokeefe83

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Ok I think I got this straight. I'm from Pennsylvania and my family owns a condo in Jacksonville. I should be ok taking my 396xt down to only use in the condo. The only time it will be in the car is when it is in my bag to and from the airport. Or should I be safe and just leave it home?
 

KE4RWS

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Jax PD and FHP

Ok I think I got this straight. I'm from Pennsylvania and my family owns a condo in Jacksonville. I should be ok taking my 396xt down to only use in the condo. The only time it will be in the car is when it is in my bag to and from the airport. Or should I be safe and just leave it home?

If it were me I'd definitely bring it along, just packed away in my baggage until safely at home, hotel, or wherever you're gonna be staying. Then you could safely bring it out. But I'm a licensed amateur operator so in my case I'm covered either way. But there's no way I'd leave a 396xt at home!

But you should also bear in mind that Jacksonville PD uses encrypted comms so you won't hear them. And unlike most Florida counties that have a separate Sheriff's Dept and police agency, Jacksonville PD is combined with the Sheriff's Dept, which means they are one in the same. That means you can't hear the police or sheriff agencies there. The Florida Highway Patrol (FHP) also use encrypted comms (Pro-Voice), so you won't hear them either. Unless there's something else you plan on listening to you won't hear as much as you might think for that area.

I know . . . Sucks.
 

KE4RWS

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"...or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission."

Your general radiotelephone operator's license can be considered to be a station license.

Granted, this is playing games with the intent of the law but it is valid per the LETTER of the law as
the operative word in the phrase is OR.

The law does NOT state "A valid amateur radio operator's license or amateur radio station license..."
The OR provision can be, and IS, interpreted to mean any radio license issued by the FCC whether amateur or not.

In general, if you are not bothering anybody and not chasing accidents or crime scenes with the aid of
a scanner in your car, nobody's going to care or bother you. But having the amateur radio license
(Any class, Florida law makes no distinction on Amateur license classes) is the easiest and best way
to ensure that you're fully covered.

Elroy

But I think in that case you'd better have a valid license in your possession if questioned for it or you'll likely have problems. Most licensed amateur's I know carry their license in their wallet. If you don't it would be prudent to start doing so (if you have a scanner in your vehicle that is).

Ironically I was recently questioned by local police as to why I had a scanner in my car. I presented my amateur radio license and that was that. As I was minding my own business in a public parking lot talking to friends on a local repeater, the issue of why I was there and why I had a scanner in my car immediately stopped at that point (that is, there was no scene being conducted nearby or any LE issues within the immediate area). The cops were merely curious what I was doing. The license took care of all of it and that was the end of the story.
 

scanfreq315

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I was pulled over here in Lee County the other day for rolling through a stop sign and other "violations", was issued a warning, but was repeatedly questioned over and over about whether I had "drugs and guns" in the car. I am certain I was profiled and they watched me enough to get plenty of probably cause to pull me over by the minor violations they witnessed. The officers wanted to search me and my car. Nothing to hide, I consented to a search.

But I forgot that my scanner was underneath my drivers seat, and thought I had it packed away in the trunk. The officer found it and asked me what it was used for. I told him I used it for listening to airplanes, fire, ambulance, and "sometimes you guys". He had no issue with it.

Honesty is the best policy.
 
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