Helicopter Channels

[HappilyRetired]

To show the juxtaposition of jurisdictions involved in the Apple Fire, take a look at the daily ops map for the fire:

Apple Fire Ops Map for 8-3-20

Some of the scattered portions of the San Bernardino National Forest are actually in the original forest boundary as issued in an Executive Order or later a Congressional bill. Some of these don't have National Forest land in them and some do. A current copy of the SBNF visitor map shows these. Those that do have NF lands in them, might have protection by Cal Fire by contract from the USFS. Notice the blue color on the map, I think it indicates these contract areas or current SRA . Then there are the green colored USFS protection areas (FRA). Some of the land in green is actually private and protection provided by the USFS by contract with Cal Fire. This is done to reduce the complexity of the jurisdictional situation and requires a current version of the SBNF map to understand. The white is under local protection (LRA) and would include a number of departments in that area.

Most of the fires we've listened to over there establish who is going to be the lead agency, the frequencies and the primary dispatch center (ordering point) fairly quickly. I've got some audio recordings from online scanner links (now Broadcastify) archives for one closer to San Berdo where things were much better. I was surprised to hear you describe something different.

I guess this reply never posted but it seems it doesn't matter now that my request for helicopter frequencies has been hijacked into a discussion of ICS and isn't the post that I first opened. I only asked what a type 1 Incident Management team was. That's not something law enforcement is familiar with. I don't know where you think I have describe something different than what exists in the San Bernardino's. I only go hiking there so I'm not intimately familiar with it. The question originally posed was unified command and someone suggested they seem to make decisions by taking a vote. I can tell you that the Incident Commander is picked based on training and areas of expertise irrespective of who had original IC duties of the incident. The exception to this says I've already noted is that if the forest is only minimally involved Cal Fire or San Bernardino end up is the Incident Commander. The incident is not run by committee. The Apple Fire was originally a Cal Fire incident and I can hear Cal Fire just fine. The fire has long since moved into the national forest and wilderness. I can't really hear much at this point since they seem to have moved further to the east.

Living in Riverside County, I knew that Cal Fire was the contract agency here. I don't have an issue with it. It just looks like I've got a radio bug in me that's kind of directing me towards learning more about communications and specifically fires because that's what I can listen to and that's what I'm surrounded by. The thick yellow grass is burn hot and fast. It seems like it's controlled chaos at first and then it lays down at sunset.

I am already functional with ICS and NIMS. As a command level officer I am ICS / NIMS / FEMA certified all the way through. It's just a management system. I am familiar with it from the law enforcement side and we have our own ICS certifications specific to law enforcement that our officers have to qualify for. But I also know it from the overall perspective. I'm retired now but I still get to keep the certificates and have the training. Like I said, it's just a management system of delegation. Everybody knows what lane they're in and who they report to.

For example, on a fire incident representatives are assigned to the unified command. That includes the gas company, the power company, the fire department, city services, ambulance services (including those that the city of Los Angeles contracts with for major incidents) that are assigned to the medical branch as well as law enforcement which is assigned to the law enforcement branch. A branch is a subsection based on function or geography or both.

I recall when I did the advanced ICS training, which is classroom training, the focus was on fire because they're the ones that taught it but the content was neutral. In fact, you can use ICS or NIMS to plan a birthday party. You have Finance, Logistics, Operations, and then the Planning section. Intelligence is an additional section that is more law enforcement focused. It doesn't generally get listed under ICS sections.

You may already know all about this but you'll notice I mentioned branches. If based on the emergency it's necessary to set up a triage area for injuries then they will generally create a medical branch which is where doctors and paramedics and nurses and whatnot will work. They are often given specific assignments.

The same applies to law enforcement. We do our own thing such as coordinating what intersections we need to shut down and making sure that they stay manned over a 12-hour operational period. We provide security for the overall area including evacuated neighborhoods that are susceptible to looters.

Since my more detailed response never seemed to post and this has now morphed into something other than helicopter frequencies I asked about I'll bow out.

 

[Paysonscanner]

I guess this reply never posted but it seems it doesn't matter now that my request for helicopter frequencies has been hijacked into a discussion of ICS and isn't the post that I first opened. I only asked what a type 1 Incident Management team was. That's not something law enforcement is familiar with. I don't know where you think I have describe something different than what exists in the San Bernardino's. I only go hiking there so I'm not intimately familiar with it. The question originally posed was unified command and someone suggested they seem to make decisions by taking a vote. I can tell you that the Incident Commander is picked based on training and areas of expertise irrespective of who had original IC duties of the incident. The exception to this says I've already noted is that if the forest is only minimally involved Cal Fire or San Bernardino end up is the Incident Commander. The incident is not run by committee. The Apple Fire was originally a Cal Fire incident and I can hear Cal Fire just fine. The fire has long since moved into the national forest and wilderness. I can't really hear much at this point since they seem to have moved further to the east.

Living in Riverside County, I knew that Cal Fire was the contract agency here. I don't have an issue with it. It just looks like I've got a radio bug in me that's kind of directing me towards learning more about communications and specifically fires because that's what I can listen to and that's what I'm surrounded by. The thick yellow grass is burn hot and fast. It seems like it's controlled chaos at first and then it lays down at sunset.

I am already functional with ICS and NIMS. As a command level officer I am ICS / NIMS / FEMA certified all the way through. It's just a management system. I am familiar with it from the law enforcement side and we have our own ICS certifications specific to law enforcement that our officers have to qualify for. But I also know it from the overall perspective. I'm retired now but I still get to keep the certificates and have the training. Like I said, it's just a management system of delegation. Everybody knows what lane they're in and who they report to.

For example, on a fire incident representatives are assigned to the unified command. That includes the gas company, the power company, the fire department, city services, ambulance services (including those that the city of Los Angeles contracts with for major incidents) that are assigned to the medical branch as well as law enforcement which is assigned to the law enforcement branch. A branch is a subsection based on function or geography or both.

I recall when I did the advanced ICS training, which is classroom training, the focus was on fire because they're the ones that taught it but the content was neutral. In fact, you can use ICS or NIMS to plan a birthday party. You have Finance, Logistics, Operations, and then the Planning section. Intelligence is an additional section that is more law enforcement focused. It doesn't generally get listed under ICS sections.

You may already know all about this but you'll notice I mentioned branches. If based on the emergency it's necessary to set up a triage area for injuries then they will generally create a medical branch which is where doctors and paramedics and nurses and whatnot will work. They are often given specific assignments.

The same applies to law enforcement. We do our own thing such as coordinating what intersections we need to shut down and making sure that they stay manned over a 12-hour operational period. We provide security for the overall area including evacuated neighborhoods that are susceptible to looters.

Since my more detailed response never seemed to post and this has now morphed into something other than helicopter frequencies I asked about I'll bow out.

I didn't mean to offend, if I did. Sorry for the long posts, I was trying to help you, not knowing your experience and training. A lot of scanner listeners are starting from scratch. I will bow out also.

 

[HappilyRetired]

I didn't mean to offend, if I did. Sorry for the long posts, I was trying to help you, not knowing your experience and training. A lot of scanner listeners are starting from scratch. I will bow out also.

You didn't offend me. I did not express myself well in my last response. Talking about ICS was fine. You were actually quite helpful and I appreciate it. Feel free to educate me on the fire stuff because I don't know anything beyond the framework of ICS. Putting it into practical application in the context of fires is new to me and you can definitely be a resource. It was the individual that apologized for hijacking your thread but then took us way off track. I'm used to this since it happens on Facebook all the time. It's like that game of telephone where you have a line of people and you whisper something into the first person's ear who Whispers it to the next and then next to the next and by the time you get to the last person and ask him what the message was it has absolutely nothing to do with the message the first person got. LOL. I like history so reading of how things used to be actually wasn't that big a deal.

I guess I could have told you ahead of time that I was already ICS certified. But mine is in the context of law enforcement. I wasn't familiar with a type 1 Incident Management team response send you did a great job of answering that. You have nothing to apologize for. Neither does the other individual. It just took me by surprise because it was completely off topic. I have a lot to learn about the etiquette of this site and I probably should not have said anything. Please don't bail out now. Your knowledge of fires and how they are handled is invaluable to me.

 

[Paysonscanner]

You didn't offend me. I did not express myself well in my last response. Talking about ICS was fine. You were actually quite helpful and I appreciate it. Feel free to educate me on the fire stuff because I don't know anything beyond the framework of ICS. Putting it into practical application in the context of fires is new to me and you can definitely be a resource. It was the individual that apologized for hijacking your thread but then took us way off track. I'm used to this since it happens on Facebook all the time. It's like that game of telephone where you have a line of people and you whisper something into the first person's ear who Whispers it to the next and then next to the next and by the time you get to the last person and ask him what the message was it has absolutely nothing to do with the message the first person got. LOL. I like history so reading of how things used to be actually wasn't that big a deal.

I guess I could have told you ahead of time that I was already ICS certified. But mine is in the context of law enforcement. I wasn't familiar with a type 1 Incident Management team response send you did a great job of answering that. You have nothing to apologize for. Neither does the other individual. It just took me by surprise because it was completely off topic. I have a lot to learn about the etiquette of this site and I probably should not have said anything. Please don't bail out now. Your knowledge of fires and how they are handled is invaluable to me.

Thank you for clearing that up, it helps. I'm a woman, a widow and caregiving for my 90+ year old parents as an RN in their home. I'm still having trouble with the widow role, I can crash low at times, even though it will be 2 years in late September/early October. I'm a woman playing in men's sandbox. I get a little emotional at times. That is how I am right now.

I was assigned on 2 fires, both in unified command. I was working in sort of a paramedic role, staffing a base camp facility and available for medical responses. Both these fires were very close to home and when the management teams ordered medical staff I was close by. I also have a fair amount of backpacking, rock climbing and river running experience so sometimes they pick a nurse instead of a paramedic or EMT.

Law enforcement in daily operations and mutual aid don't seem as comfortable with ICS. Their radio procedures vary greatly from fires. They don't get as much practice with mutual aid as fire agencies. Midwest and Eastern fire departments haven't fully embraced ICS either. Their radio procedure is unique to certain areas. Both LE and the non western FD's have a strong "this is how we have always done things and they work don't they?" attitude. However, any agency that receives federal money has to use ICS. I'm generalizing here and I know there are exceptions. LE worked well on fires in the Sierra foothill county I lived/worked in, the county SO and the CHP. I've heard some interesting stories of small counties in CA where that isn't or wasn't true.

OK, I'm further off topic here.

 

[BrianPdex82]

I’m here on the other side of the forest, in the highdesert. Wondering what frequencies you’re listening and hearing anything on this fire? Thanks

 

[HappilyRetired]

I’m here on the other side of the forest, in the highdesert. Wondering what frequencies you’re listening and hearing anything on this fire? Thanks

There's a link further up that was given to me showing a list of federal frequencies. That's where you'll find them. Somewhere on that rather long list. They transitioned off of forest in it as soon as the incident management team one took over.

 

[HappilyRetired]

Thank you for clearing that up, it helps. I'm a woman, a widow and caregiving for my 90+ year old parents as an RN in their home. I'm still having trouble with the widow role, I can crash low at times, even though it will be 2 years in late September/early October. I'm a woman playing in men's sandbox. I get a little emotional at times. That is how I am right now.

I was assigned on 2 fires, both in unified command. I was working in sort of a paramedic role, staffing a base camp facility and available for medical responses. Both these fires were very close to home and when the management teams ordered medical staff I was close by. I also have a fair amount of backpacking, rock climbing and river running experience so sometimes they pick a nurse instead of a paramedic or EMT.

Law enforcement in daily operations and mutual aid don't seem as comfortable with ICS. Their radio procedures vary greatly from fires. They don't get as much practice with mutual aid as fire agencies. Midwest and Eastern fire departments haven't fully embraced ICS either. Their radio procedure is unique to certain areas. Both LE and the non western FD's have a strong "this is how we have always done things and they work don't they?" attitude. However, any agency that receives federal money has to use ICS. I'm generalizing here and I know there are exceptions. LE worked well on fires in the Sierra foothill county I lived/worked in, the county SO and the CHP. I've heard some interesting stories of small counties in CA where that isn't or wasn't true.

OK, I'm further off topic here.

You don't need to apologize for talking about ICS. I opened the door to that by asking what a type 1 team is. Direct discussion on that I feel is okay. Even input from other people as welcome. I was just surprised to begin reading about frequencies and how they used to work in the 1960s and stuff that wasn't related to now to my question. I'm new here and I don't know the different people. I'll admit that I have this thing on Facebook especially where when people try to hijack to topic I get a little pissed.

I'm very sorry to hear that your husband has gone on to another world. If it's okay I will pray for you. Especially knowing that you're caring for your 90+ year old parents. That's got to be an awful lot on your plate.

LAPD is not against ICS. As I mentioned, our officers are required to have IS 100, 700, 800 and other certifications. Many of our officers are also certified under S190 / S130. Anyone that works a forward position in an active fire zone has to know how to handle a hose.

We actually use ICS but on a very broad scale. You just don't notice it. We of course are in the Operations section but also deal directly with Logistics and Planning as well as Finance. We definitely have our foot in the Intelligence section. Overseeing everything is Command. We do it on a day-to-day basis. Even span of control is covered. We have cars that have there reporting areas and there is a sergeant assigned to cover a certain number of reporting areas. Span of control. Even at the police academy level training is coordinated between the different locations that provide the training. We have the LAPD Academy, the Sheriff's Academy, the Orange County Sheriff's Academy, Rio Hondo, and others. We deliberately train so that we all work the same way. We even use plain English except when we are referring to Penal Code or traffic code sections. Those are something unique to the police suspect and doesn't really fall under ICS.

So you see we actually do utilize it. It's just a matter of interfacing. More than once I've been the agency representative this had to sit at the ICP working a fire. Our role in a fire is limited. But Heaven Help Us the day the big one hits. We will take on a much broader role. ICS will very much be at play when that day hits.

 

[Fyrtog]

I want to apologize especially to you, Happily Retired as well as to members of this board for my posting following what Paysonscanner had posted. Apparently from what I have read, I do not have enough postings to qualify to PM members or I didn't see the area on how to PM a member. Hind sight is always 2020 and I should have and at the very least had just posted for her to E-mail me off list and left it at that or not have posted anything at all which probably would have been the course of action for me.

I have been monitoring the various public safety and aviation frequencies since the mid to late 70's and as you have read, she is very knowledgeable on communications and I have learned from her new things as well as been reminded of things I once I knew. she posted about something that I remembered happening way back when as well as mentioning about a place that I had been to before and I thought that having been there, I could offer a visual as to what it looked like. Sometimes, these forums take on a life of their own so what I thought was going to be an innocent posting turned out not to be and I paid the price for it which I own and again, apologize for.

Sincerely,

Michael
Fyrtog@aol.com

 

[Paysonscanner]

I want to apologize especially to you, Happily Retired as well as to members of this board for my posting following what Paysonscanner had posted. Apparently from what I have read, I do not have enough postings to qualify to PM members or I didn't see the area on how to PM a member. Hind sight is always 2020 and I should have and at the very least had just posted for her to E-mail me off list and left it at that or not have posted anything at all which probably would have been the course of action for me.

I have been monitoring the various public safety and aviation frequencies since the mid to late 70's and as you have read, she is very knowledgeable on communications and I have learned from her new things as well as been reminded of things I once I knew. she posted about something that I remembered happening way back when as well as mentioning about a place that I had been to before and I thought that having been there, I could offer a visual as to what it looked like. Sometimes, these forums take on a life of their own so what I thought was going to be an innocent posting turned out not to be and I paid the price for it which I own and again, apologize for.

Sincerely,

Michael
Fyrtog@aol.com

In my book you have zero, nada to apologize for. I inserted some female emotion and that sometimes causes a stir in men's circles. I'm used to it, I've dealt with some interesting physicians, patients, paramedics, fellow rock climbers and river runners that had some trouble with women being in the mix. It's OK, I'm used to it. I developed some pretty good techniques to smooth it over. I have to apologize as I'm again off topic. I just respond to what I see and tend to wander a bit. I'm OK now.