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HELP NEEDED: Making a Counter Encryption Argument

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stantorres

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PII (personally identifiable information) has to be "personally identifiable". That usually means by name. EMS usually does not transmit names on the radio, they just say "Alpha 1 is enroute with a 25 year old male with abdominal pain, pulse, BP, etc". Even if you argue that one could guess who the person is being transported from their house based on that, you don't really know, it could be a friend, visitor, repairman.

Protecting patient information is a great angle to use for pro-encryption administrators, but the main goal has always been to keep the news media from finding out about incidents, or showing up at scenes, imho.
 

nowires

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A bill being considered in California to remove unnecessary encryption from some departments.

 

chrismol1

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Ironically, this website is a very effective tool for selling encryption. I have seen it employed for that several times.
Yea I saw a few I was LOL. There's a few statewide radio system powerpoint presentations floating around google on employing encryption when your dept carries over, with screenshots of RR and broadcastify LOL
 

Echo4Thirty

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Yea I saw a few I was LOL. There's a few statewide radio system powerpoint presentations floating around google on employing encryption when your dept carries over, with screenshots of RR and broadcastify LOL

I have worked at a couple of different agencies as well as manufacturers. I can tell you this has been true, and it works.
 

BMDaug

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Does anyone know anything regarding legislation in various states on freedom of information? I was talking to a former LEO here in CO and he mentioned that he THINKS/BELIEVES the legislation in Colorado governing the free flow of information between citizens and law enforcement states that the public has the right to monitor law enforcement operations to the extent that if a citizen files a request for encryption keys, the state is legally obligated to provide them… Like I said, he wasn’t sure but felt that this was how the laws in Colorado were written… any thoughts?

If that is the way the laws are written, then encryption becomes a massive expense just for someone to constantly be able to audit those keys and listen in in the encryption anyway. That would definitely make it not worth it for all of the reasons listed above!

-B
 

mmckenna

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he THINKS/BELIEVES the legislation in Colorado governing the free flow of information between citizens and law enforcement states that the public has the right to monitor law enforcement operations to the extent that if a citizen files a request for encryption keys, the state is legally obligated to provide them… Like I said, he wasn’t sure but felt that this was how the laws in Colorado were written… any thoughts?

I'd ask for proof, because that makes zero sense, not the way you described it.
Encryption keys are like the key to your house. Once you give someone else a copy, you've lost control over who has access to the house. That other person could go to the hardware store, make 100 copies, and hand them out to random people on the street.

Even if this did happen, the very thing people claim to be afraid of with encryption will just shift to cellular, or meeting behind 7-11….
 

BMDaug

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I'd ask for proof, because that makes zero sense, not the way you described it.
Encryption keys are like the key to your house. Once you give someone else a copy, you've lost control over who has access to the house. That other person could go to the hardware store, make 100 copies, and hand them out to random people on the street.

Even if this did happen, the very thing people claim to be afraid of with encryption will just shift to cellular, or meeting behind 7-11….
Well right, and I definitely haven’t done my homework here! But if there are laws in place that govern free flow of information between law enforcement and the citizens, it is possible.

Also, information is often treated differently than, for instance, physical access when it comes to government. Like citizens have a right to lots of records and other government information but they aren’t entitled to keys to the jail. In a commercial setting, of course, private is private, but often, in government, if it’s not sealed by a court or officially ‘classified’ or ‘top secret’, information is legally required to be publicly available upon request.

This also may be a gray area, depending on when the laws were last updated. If the laws are old enough to not specifically protect these items, then the information may not be specifically protected. Or it may be that there are laws specifically speaking to the right of citizens to monitor police activities unencumbered.

I’m just throwing this out to see if anyone has dealt with this in the past or knows what laws may apply. I’m trying to research this more as well! Very interesting topic OP!!!

-B
 

clbsquared

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A quick google search yielded this about CORA under the “Exclusions”. The information security plan of a public agency is excluded. Since encryption keys are used to secure communications (information) it would appear your request of the keys would be denied.

FA1ADFAE-A0DE-4DA9-A6F2-D44532696FC3.png
 

cpetraglia

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For encryption, the organization in charge of the radios will need to spend more time and labor to deal with encryption or hire a custodian at additional cost. Whoever loads encryption keys should have some form of security clearance and be held responsible for them, otherwise security of the radio transmissions is only as good as the guy who has the key and he can give that out to friends or the press. If the radios are not set up right and encryption fails on a radio, others may not hear their broadcast, which could result in dead firemen. If encryption in the radios is field selectable you introduce more complications and training for the users.

There was a FD somewhere recently that went encrypted then there was a lot of complaining from scanner people or maybe some other group then the fire chief decided it wasn't a good idea and they removed encryption. If you can find who did that you might get some compelling info from a fire chief.

Bottom line you could throw at the proponents of encryption is, will they be responsible for any harm or death if encryption causes a problem with critical life or death communications.
I believe you may be talking about DC fire and EMS. There was a crash in one of the subway tunnels that led to much confusion with radio traffic. The FD then opened up all the dispatch channels, but kept tac and other sensitive channels encrypted.

PD has been encrypted since the change over to P25 and it ain't changing.
 

mmckenna

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Well right, and I definitely haven’t done my homework here! But if there are laws in place that govern free flow of information between law enforcement and the citizens, it is possible.

I think clbsquared answered this question.

While you may find some loophole, that'll probably get slammed shut.
People have been trying to find ways around this for a while, and I haven't heard of any agency handing encryption keys out to the general public for the asking. The reality is that any legit agency is going to have to meet DOJ/FBI requirements. I know ours does, and I have to go through periodic training on it. They (FBI/DOJ) are very clear and specific about information security. An agency can lose their access if they screw things up. For me to be in the same room as the terminals, radios, consoles, etc. they ran me through the same background check procedures as the 911 dispatchers. It wasn't easy and most do not pass. It wasn't cheap to do that level of check, and they take it seriously.


As for free flow of information, that's going to probably end up with you filing a FOIA request. I don't know of any requirement that says the general public gets immediate access to information.
 

mmckenna

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I’m just throwing this out to see if anyone has dealt with this in the past or knows what laws may apply. I’m trying to research this more as well! Very interesting topic OP!!!

…and don't get me wrong. I understand where you are coming from. I've been in this job for 25 years now, 30 in the industry. Our PD is not encrypted yet, but we are going to be. So are all the agencies around us. The radio shop manager (I've known for a long time) and I have been talking about how to handle encryption between agencies. It's complex, but if there are not over inflated egos in the way, sensible adults can quickly work it out.
When it comes to sharing encryption keys between agencies (not scanner listeners), they are not going to give me keys to load in our radios, even though they know me, they know the chief, they know our officers. They know that once they let the keys out of their hands, they've lost control over who has them. Again, this is between people that have known each other for years, people that have all been background checked/security checked. The way it'll be handled is keys will be loaded into our radios by their guys, and our keys will be loaded into their radios by me. That way there's no gaps in the chain of custody of the keys.

Now, extrapolate that out to how they'd have to do that with scanner listeners….

There are no consumer scanners that will support a keyloader interface. (maybe eventually)
They would need to do background checks on each and every person who wanted their scanner set up with keys. (expensive, and probably many would flunk, then what are they going to do?)
There would need to be some chain of custody of the scanner (impossible….)

Sure, someone could buy their own APX radio and that would support encryption. But what are they going to do about trunking systems? Assuring the person who owns the radio set it up properly for non-affiliate…. (Burden on the agency)

And then what happens when the agency rolls their keys? Someone from the agency is going to have to run around town making sure every scanner owner gets their radios updated?

Every time someone loses/sells their scanner, the agency will have to change keys.
Someone will need to make sure the scanner stays with the person who's been background checked….

Again, I get where you are coming from with this stuff, but so far I haven't seen anyone above who seems to comprehend the logistics of this idea.

The best you can hope for is that said agency will stream radio traffic on the internet. That'll need to have PII redacted, so figure on a delay, and there will be gaps in what you hear.
Or, maybe primary dispatch stays in the clear, if the agency has more than one channel.
Or, radio traffic gets handled over LTE, and you have access to nothing real time.
Or, everything goes encrypted and you'll need to FOIA everything.

No easy answers...
 

12dbsinad

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Paranoia about personnel information being spread by pubic safety radio is laughable., especially nowadays. Do you know how much private info you potentially give up by banking online, using the internet in general, social media, credit cards, cell phone apps accessing all your photos, camera and microphone? etc, etc. That is just a few of them off the top of my head. Doing business online now is becoming not an option, it's mandatory. Next thing you know your identity is stolen and your SS number is shared like a hooker on Elm street. No medical info is typically ever tied to a name over EMS. I don't think I've ever heard of someone being compromised because they got a speeding ticket and their name was given out over the radio, which is a privilege anyway
 

mmckenna

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None the less, the current requirement here is to encrypt PII. That's not new, it's been a requirement for a long time, they are just starting to enforce it.
And the agencies agreed to this when they signed up to access CLETS. They shouldn't be surprised.

There's two issues that seem to get mixed up frequently:

1. Should law enforcement be encrypted?

2. If they are, should average Joe scanner listener be able to demand encryption keys from said agency so they can listen in any time they want?

And no, I'm not looking for an answer to those questions….
 

Baker845

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Look into Orange county California . Orange county fire authority moved to encryption for short time, there was big deal made and the radios were reprogrammed and encryption was removed from daily dispatch and ops Talk groups.
 

gmclam

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Well right, and I definitely haven’t done my homework here! But if there are laws in place that govern free flow of information between law enforcement and the citizens, it is possible.
To satisfy an FOIA request, I'd send you a redacted transcript of the requested (radio) communication. You won't get "keys to the house", just picture of what you are allowed to see.
 

marcotor

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Look into Orange county California . Orange county fire authority moved to encryption for short time, there was big deal made and the radios were reprogrammed and encryption was removed from daily dispatch and ops Talk groups.

Really? I live in Orange County, California. While the encryption was driven by the OCFA Chief, ALL fire talkgroups in OC were encrypted. And I can tell you the Cities, the Metronet JPA, and the Orange County Fire Authority are all fully encrypted as I write this. There is a plan in place to remove encryption from the fire talkgroups, but given the short staffing of the radio shop, and the fact *every* radio in the county (not just Fire) will be need to be touched twice, when this does happen will be some unknown time in the future.
 

BMDaug

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To satisfy an FOIA request, I'd send you a redacted transcript of the requested (radio) communication. You won't get "keys to the house", just picture of what you are allowed to see.
Ha, ya, that sounds right! I’m glad people are shooting holes in this. I just moved here at the end of last year so I certainly don’t know the answer, I was just asking the question! It may be that while citizens are allowed to audit the communications, it may require a delayed broadcast via a different medium to fulfill that obligation.
 
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