HOW to aquire programming software

[LostSignal]

Hi all,
I am new here on the forum as well as "fresh meat" thrown into the lion's den by my boss. I have read and understand that I cannot purchase radio software here on the forum, which is understandable and NOT my intent ANYWAYS!!! I do however have a few questions on purchasing software:

1) I have software RPM R18B and trying to communicate to M7100 with remote heads and it gives an "Error - radio was programmed with a later version of radio Programming software, Please contact Software Services."

2) How do I know WHAT programming software version, if you will, that I will need in order to be able to communicate with these radios? So far, it's reminding me of trying to "read" an Astro Spectra with "older" software. This is frustrating to say the least as I just can't blindly go buy software or have the company purchaser go chasing a "ghost".

3) The company I work for is VERY DEEPLY involved with the Fire Departments throughout the United States and PROBABLY one VERY NEAR where YOU live. Thus, do I have to tell the purchaser and/or my boss that we will have to buy software for 2k+ dollars for "lab rat" radios, which is what we're currently trying to set up so we have TEST radios to work with.

Thank you for reading and hope someone can help/guide me on where to go look? I was also given information that Harris programming software was "readily available" on-line for download when I purchased the programming cable. Apparently NOT the case!!! What I don't understand is that we have old Astro's and Astro Spectra's as well and it is near impossible, if NOT COMPLETELY impossible, to get the DOS version of the programming software? Even when talking to Motorola themselves the purchaser was unable to get the software?! At this point, WHY would ANYONE care about this old of software being distributed? But yet, I can EASILY spot an old car built back in the 40-50's and they can readily get parts for it? Just blows my mind on certain things and it can get to the point of ridiculous.

Again, thanks and sorry for the small rant. Just a bit frustrated right now as I am now in desperate need of help in getting these radios up and running to be used for "lab rats" for future fire departments that use them and/or similar radios.

 

[ElroyJetson]

In most cases, you can create a suitable file and write it to the radio.

Unlike Motorola software, which upgrades the radio so that older versions of software can NOT be used to read from OR write to the radio. ProGrammer will ALWAYS be able to write a file to a radio as long as the radio has not been upgraded to work with RPM.

As long as the radio is not upgraded to need RPM, your version of Programmer WILL work to program the radio. You just can't READ the newer version codeplug.

Once you write over it, you will then be able to read it back, too.

You said you're trying to read an M7100.

Presumably you know what frequency band it works on. Let's assume it's VHF.

Use ProGrammer to create a simple VHF file. Set the radio type to M7100, connect your cables, and write it to the radio.

It'll work. If the firmware in the M7100 is not upgraded to require RPM, it will work.

You will have to recreate any files the customer needs if you can't read them. That may be a hassle.

But you are not barred from being able to program that radio just because it was last programmed with a version that's newer than yours.

Now, how to find out what version it was last progammed with?

It's easy if the revision menu is enabled in the radio.

In the revision menu, one entry is "PERS VER", personality version.

If the radio uses ProGrammer, then the revision is 34 if it was last programmed with ProGrammer 20.

It'll be 32 if it was last programmed with 18.

The rev number is the Programmer version plus 14.

If the rev number is 50 or above, it's an RPM-dependent radio. Rev 51 means RPM version 1 was used. In this case it'll be 50 plus the ProGrammer version.

If the rev is above 50, you can't use ProGrammer UNLESS you have the firmware rolled back to a ProGrammer compatible revision.

The catch there is, only RPM can roll back the firmware to ProGrammer compatible versions and
there is a trick to it. A trick that M/A-Com (or now Harris) documents and distributes with RPM.

I have RPM and if you need the instructions I'll type them up for you.

 

[LostSignal]

WOW... NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE HOW...

THANKFUL I am and VERY APPRECIATIVE to your reply!!! Thanks Elroy!!!

I pretty much gave up on this forum because there was no reply? I'm "new", sorta, when it comes to programming/reading radios. Most fire departments, BY FAR, use Motorola radios (i.e. Astro, CDM series, XTL/APX, Radius/Maxtrac, MCS2000, etc). The company that I work for is encountering more and more with Harris radios with the most recent ones being the CS7000 Desktop Stations and the M7100 mobiles of which there is next to NO experience with these radios. Just recently, Motorola came out with a new XPR radio series that we just recently dealt with at a new fire station.

ANYWAYS, just trying to give some more background information on me and what my experience level is. I'm VERY FAMILIAR with Microchip PIC's, circuit board analysis (although I still consider myself a "green thumb" junior engineer and need the more experienced engineers help every now and then), and a little bit of programming with C, uController programming, etc.

Again, thank you for your reply and first thing in the morning, I will look into what version the radios have... assuming I know how to thumb through the display? I will keep you and whoever else updated on my/our progress with these "lab rat" radios. I would also appreciate the offer of "typing up" the RPM instructions. As I learn more and more, I will eventually start helping out other people/forum members here on the forums. But until I get a HAM license and more familiar with radios and programming radios, there is little I can contribute other than post more questions?! Well, goodnight for now and thanks again.

LostSignal

 

[jim202]

You might just want to call the Harris Technical Assistance Center and talk with them. Try 800-528-7711. You will probably want to select option 3 when you start to listen to the different selections.

They can also point you towards obtaining a subscription to the "TechLink". This provides you access to many of the operator and service manuals for the different radios. You can download them and have them on your computer.

The person you talk with there at the Tech center can also point you in the right direction to obtain the software you might need. If you can stay away from the trunking versions, the software really isn't that expensive. With Motorola, you need a different software package for each family of radio. That is not the case with Harris.

 

[LostSignal]

thanks for advice

You might just want to call the Harris Technical Assistance Center and talk with them. Try 800-528-7711. You will probably want to select option 3 when you start to listen to the different selections.

They can also point you towards obtaining a subscription to the "TechLink". This provides you access to many of the operator and service manuals for the different radios. You can download them and have them on your computer.

The person you talk with there at the Tech center can also point you in the right direction to obtain the software you might need. If you can stay away from the trunking versions, the software really isn't that expensive. With Motorola, you need a different software package for each family of radio. That is not the case with Harris.

jim, THANK YOU for the phone number w/ ext and advice. EVERYTHING is being learned here and taken into GREAT consideration.

do NOT get me started with Motorola's different software???!!! Oh my God, ... yeah, don't get me started because I know the frustration all too well!!!

I've checked the "Personality Version" and it is "34" So I need to get 20 to be able to deal with it from what I'm understanding thus far. If I'm understanding what has been stated thus far? And, of course, unfortunately I have "18", which is just my luck... typical.

Well, so far so good. At least I am no longer "flying blind" here and have SOME sorta direction. I will, more than likely, have the purchaser of the company deal with Harris and will update my boss with what I have learned thus far. He is the one that's been pushing for me to get a HAM and pointed me to this website as well. You guys are AWESOME!!!

to ALL,
Thank you VERY MUCH with helping me so far. The company I work for has LOTS OF EXPERIENCE in dealing with the Motorola's and we even have 2x people we can goto for help if things goto H3LL in a hand basket ... Anyways, you guys get the point.

BTW, I'm doing this research on my own time and not company time, which is a bit frustrating, but I guess I can also take it as a learning experience as well. Because, well, I am learning something.

Bye for now all, gotta "clock-in" and start slav'n away here at work.

LostSignal

 

[ElroyJetson]

Again, if the radios in question are on a conventional system and you have a frequency counter and PL decoder, you can recreate the radio file using ProGrammer 18 and write to the radio in question. Once that's done you can stick with ProGrammer 18.

It's also possible if there's trunking data in the radio but it will require a lot more note taking.

The system data for your local edacs trunked system is probably on file here in the database. It will make a good starting point.

Since RPM/ProGrammer is about 2500 dollars, it's worth a fair amount of effort to try to recreate the system data in ProGrammer 18 before spending that kind of money.

And, there is NO guarantee that Harris will sell it to you. They are a bit restrictive about who gets it
and who doesn't. They generally are rather protective of the market share of their local Harris system dealers and won't usually sell the software to an individual or company operating within a market area covered by a busy Harris dealership.

You can always ask. They might even say yes.

 

[LostSignal]

do just that...

Again, if the radios in question are on a conventional system and you have a frequency counter and PL decoder, you can recreate the radio file using ProGrammer 18 and write to the radio in question. Once that's done you can stick with ProGrammer 18.

It's also possible if there's trunking data in the radio but it will require a lot more note taking.

The system data for your local edacs trunked system is probably on file here in the database. It will make a good starting point.

Since RPM/ProGrammer is about 2500 dollars, it's worth a fair amount of effort to try to recreate the system data in ProGrammer 18 before spending that kind of money.

And, there is NO guarantee that Harris will sell it to you. They are a bit restrictive about who gets it
and who doesn't. They generally are rather protective of the market share of their local Harris system dealers and won't usually sell the software to an individual or company operating within a market area covered by a busy Harris dealership.

You can always ask. They might even say yes.

They're 800 conventional. Everything you have advised thus far has been "used", if you will. In short, I'm doing what you have advised me to do AND I am going to be using the RPM R18B that I have on one of the two radios that we have in the lab. I'm still hoping my boss gets the v20 (i.e PersVer 34) software so I can at least read the other radio for some reference. I've gone through the tabs on the RPM R18B in the program itself and just have NO CLUE on what to do???

The only other question I have for now and for quite some time, is there some sort of "training" that I can look for online on how to deal with these radios or do I "splatter" the one radio and learn from my mistakes? As far as I know, the radios are a working pair, but with NO filtered audio coming out of the back of them. The only thing I need to configure the radios for for now is to be able to have filtered audio come out of the back along with programming them with the ability to have Call Alert w/ PTT. That's just for starters.

ANYWAYS, thank you elroy and the rest of you who have replied. I MIGHT be asking some questions from time-to-time on how to use the program if I hit a BRICK wall!? I will do my best to figure it out on my own first. So I'm hoping that you or other members don't mind? PLEASE keep in mind that it is frustrating on my end because I've been given a task that I have no clue whatsoever on how/what to do other than little bits and pieces of information that I've gathered thus far AND trying to do my "regular" job with the equipment that we provide/make for the fire departments.

Again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH PEOPLE!!!

LostSignal

 

[ElroyJetson]

If you don't need trunking capable software then that's good news for you. Harris does offer a version of ProGrammer which is conventional only and costs about 250 dollars.

The best way to learn is to do. Create one channel in the conventional set and then connect it up in the general setup screen. Then test it. Expand your tests a feature at a time.

The ProGrammer software package is truly a wonder. Motorola should have copied its basic concept decades ago. One package for all supported products. Any radio file can be directly programmed into any other supported radio. Awesome. Even complex trunking programming is done in a logical and easily understood order.

You can tell I'm a fan of ProGrammer, even though my radio loyalty is with Motorola, for the most part.

 

[LMR_Dude]

RPM has some good help answers built into it...usually. Click on the field you want answers on then press SHIFT + F1 or for general help just press F1, its gotten me thru some ticklish situations.

A Conventional 800 personality shouldnt be to hard to build, create the freq set then move on to the conventional system.

Wading thru the options should slow you down some figuring out what you want and what you can ignore. I'd pay close attention to General Options, Power Up Options and Programmable Menus as they can have the have options that piss off users the most.

 

[LostSignal]

thanks for the input

RPM has some good help answers built into it...usually. Click on the field you want answers on then press SHIFT + F1 or for general help just press F1, its gotten me thru some ticklish situations.

A Conventional 800 personality shouldnt be to hard to build, create the freq set then move on to the conventional system.

Wading thru the options should slow you down some figuring out what you want and what you can ignore. I'd pay close attention to General Options, Power Up Options and Programmable Menus as they can have the have options that piss off users the most.

LMR, thanks for the heads-up and insight. I've seen the "HELP" buttons in some of the tabs. My boss is fine with me "splattering" the one radio as well and agrees with elroy that I'll learn by doing. I just KNOW I'm gonna hit a BRICK wall somewhere down the road and will need a bit more of your guys help. Like I said, "I'll do my VERY BEST to try to figure it out..." before I go bothering you guys. You guys have been AWESOME!!! Just NO WORDS to describe of how appreciative I am with your guys help and input AND my retarded questions at times. Thanks for putting up with me.

Finally, I was a little "scared", if you will, in even joining the radio forum because I'm NOT a radio tech by ANY means whatsoever and am learning as I go. I know how to pin the radio cables, know about Call Alert and how trunking systems basically work, Two-Tone, DTMF, etc etc etc but have no "real" experience programming radios other than dabbling a bit with Astro/Spectra radio programming (i.e. DOS software) with the RIB. Anyways, a litttttle bit more insight on my knowledge base with radios.

Thanks everyone and ALL have a good evening!!!

LostSignal

 

[ElroyJetson]

I don't think you'll find many brick walls in ProGrammer. It SEEMS kind of complex at first, but take it a page at a time and you will see how logical it is.

It's FAR simpler than most Moto software.

Did you know that with Motorola Astro25 software (XTS5000, etc) with a radio that's fully optioned out, and has max channel capacity (2000), the number of individually editable data fields is in excess of two hundred THOUSAND?

Be glad ProGrammer is simpler than that.

 

[LostSignal]

We have SUCCESS!!! YAY!!!

to ALL, "the Eagle has landed..." well, more like crash landed on my end, but STILL, I have successfully "written" to the radio and can NOW... FINALLY... "read" the thing.

I have some questions:

Question 1:
Now that I have used "MY" version of ProGrammer "RPM R18B", did I "lose" some capability/functionality that the radio actually has because I'm using somewhat of an older ProGrammer version? Put a different way, I once had a NOS kit installed (this is an analogy), but now the bottle is taken away? If you can understand that analogy?

Question 2:
What "tab" in ProGrammer should I start with? I started with "SYSTEMS" and then I had to goto "SETS". The "Options" tab and the "SYNOPSIS" tab I don't know what to really do with???

Question 3:
Is filtered audio always "present" on the back of the radio? NOT the "speaker level" audio!!!

Question 4:
How do I "enable" Pers Vers (i.e. Personality Version) on the front menu of the radio? It's a control head that is connected and I don't know if that makes a difference?

Question 5: (Final question for the time being)
How do I enable Call Alert (i.e. on the Motorola's it's usually VIPout1 or something like that)? I need to associate a PTT with this "Active Low and/or High" signaling as well?

Right now, I'm fumbling through the program to try to get more familiar with it, but MANNNN is it a learning curve!!! I'm doing my best to figure things out on my own and these are the questions I have NOT been able to figure out on my own?

Other than that, so far so good thanks to your guys help. THANK YOU VERY MUCH people!!! SERIOUSLY!!!

- LostSignal

 

[ElroyJetson]

1: No. New versions of ProGrammer more often than not just change what models of radios are being supported. The oldest ones go, the newest ones are added. P25 support (and later, P25 trunking) were the most recent major changes.

Another reason for new versions is that new versions may be required by higher firmware revisions in the radio. Don't expect today's brand new radio with today's brand new firmware to be usable with ProGrammer 15 no matter what you do. You'd have to downgrade the firmware to use 15 with it.

If for some reason you are having problems with the radio firmware being a version you can't work with, you can contact the TAC (Technical Assistance Center) and ask them if they would be so kind as to send you firmware that is compatible with your version of programmer and which also serves the needs of the radio. (There are many versions. There are even different firmware series for a single radio. The type of digital and/or encryption capabilities, and more, determine which firmware series is right for your radio.) For example, in a P7100 portable, F-coded
DSP firmware is for radios that are capable of supporting P25 in hardware ("179" circuit board revision) while the G coded DSP firmware is for the non-P25 P7100 with the "174" circuit board type.

I realize that's just noise to you right now but if you get into these radios long enough it'll be meaningful and you'll soon KNOW what a radio can do just by looking at the features list and the current DSP and firmware revisions.



2: You have to build the various lists and then link them together in the systems tab. You'd build a conventional personality set and assign it in the systems tab. For trunking, you'd build set lists for specific agencies, build frequency sets for the various sites, and link them together in systems.

3: Don't know.

4: Go to the menu options and add the Revision menu entry to the appropriate list (trunked or conventional, as available). The personality version is part of the revision menu.

5: I don't know. I've only used Orions as expensive (but excellent) scanners and never had any use for their many available back connector options.

Happy to help.

 

[LostSignal]

elroy,

Thank you for the information on what to do to "build files" and how to go about doing it.

for Question# 3: I'll just have to check on the filtered audio with a scope. I downloaded the manual, but didn't have much time to really "look" through it yesterday before the end of the day. Heck, I'm off today (FINALLY) so I'll just download the manual again and look through it. Anyways...

for Question# 5: Not too long after I posted my questions, I thought about the "Call Alert" question and was thinking to myself that that is a trunking feature and we don't have any Harris trunking "computers/repeaters" to TEST with. Right now, I am dealing strictly with a Conventional setup and asked my boss, "why am I trying to setup Call Alert on these radios if we don't have a trunking system for them (i.e. found out it is called iCall, a Harris-M/A Com equivalent to Motorola's 'Call Alert')?" He just wants to see if I CAN set iCall??? Man that was frustrating to hear that part because here I am trying to set something up without "thinking" about it while I'm doing it and KNOWING better???!!! SO, I've come up with a better strategy on how to approach my learning curve... THINK FIRST BEFORE DOING!!! ROFL!!! Anyways, I think you get the point.

Well, thanks again for your help. I'll be fumbling around with it this coming Tuesday and/or sometime next week.

- LostSignal

BTW... yes, you're correct, some of the information was "noise", but yet at the same time I was following you as I'm familiar with uControllers code/firmware (i.e. I even write a little bit of code using Microchip PIC's... albeit, VERY, VERY SIMPLE code for activating/controlling: LED's, other IC's, etc etc etc).

 

[ElroyJetson]

FYI, edacs systems have an "icall" (individual call) mode which allows a private conversation between the initiating caller and the unit being called. No other units will normally be able to hear this call.

The radios remain in the private call mode until the call is cancelled or it times out.

It's effective and works quite well. Usually the icall is directed to the first logical repeater assignment
on that site. (I won't say always because the first repeater may be busy when the call is placed.)

 

[gcopter1]

In most cases, you can create a suitable file and write it to the radio.

Unlike Motorola software, which upgrades the radio so that older versions of software can NOT be used to read from OR write to the radio. ProGrammer will ALWAYS be able to write a file to a radio as long as the radio has not been upgraded to work with RPM.

As long as the radio is not upgraded to need RPM, your version of Programmer WILL work to program the radio. You just can't READ the newer version codeplug.

Once you write over it, you will then be able to read it back, too.

You said you're trying to read an M7100.

Presumably you know what frequency band it works on. Let's assume it's VHF.

Use ProGrammer to create a simple VHF file. Set the radio type to M7100, connect your cables, and write it to the radio.

It'll work. If the firmware in the M7100 is not upgraded to require RPM, it will work.

You will have to recreate any files the customer needs if you can't read them. That may be a hassle.

But you are not barred from being able to program that radio just because it was last programmed with a version that's newer than yours.

Now, how to find out what version it was last progammed with?

It's easy if the revision menu is enabled in the radio.

In the revision menu, one entry is "PERS VER", personality version.

If the radio uses ProGrammer, then the revision is 34 if it was last programmed with ProGrammer 20.

It'll be 32 if it was last programmed with 18.

The rev number is the Programmer version plus 14.

If the rev number is 50 or above, it's an RPM-dependent radio. Rev 51 means RPM version 1 was used. In this case it'll be 50 plus the ProGrammer version.

If the rev is above 50, you can't use ProGrammer UNLESS you have the firmware rolled back to a ProGrammer compatible revision.

The catch there is, only RPM can roll back the firmware to ProGrammer compatible versions and
there is a trick to it. A trick that M/A-Com (or now Harris) documents and distributes with RPM.

I have RPM and if you need the instructions I'll type them up for you.

Is 69.0 a valid revision number?

 

[ElroyJetson]

A version of 69 would imply that RPM version 19 was used. I don't think RPM ever went that high,
so my GUESS is that it was programmed with RPM 2. I do not (yet) know what versions are associated with RPM 2.

I think we may be about to find out. Odds are that somebody knows.

 

[Thunderknight]

A version of 69 would imply that RPM version 19 was used. I don't think RPM ever went that high,
so my GUESS is that it was programmed with RPM 2. I do not (yet) know what versions are associated with RPM 2.

RPM2 only supports the XL-200 right now.