How to identify system type used on a known frequency (Not in Database)

[downeydigs]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to post this question; if not, please point me in the right direction. Also, I have searched for an answer prior to posting. I'm sure the answer is already out there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Preface:
I will preface my post by stating that I am a very novice scanner user; I mostly just listen. My knowledge of radio transmission technology is very basic, and my understanding of newer digital technologies (e.g. DMR, MotoTRBO, P25 Phase 1/2, simulcast, etc.) is even less. I have relied heavily on RR database to program my scanners up until now that I'm trying to identify and program something that is not in the database.

I am actually helping a friend with the process of selecting, purchasing, and programming the first scanner that they have owned since everything in our area was analog. This person is retired from a local company, where he was the director of health, safety, security, and environmental. He is wanting to monitor their radio traffic, for his own personal entertainment, from his home, which is less than a mile from their facility. I'm trying to make sure that he purchases a scanner that is capable of monitoring everything that he wants to, and that it is even possible to monitor what he wants to.


MY QUESTION: How can I identify the type of system (DMR, MotoTRBO, APCO P25, etc.) in use on a known/given frequency for a local company, and how can I ensure proper programming to monitor ALL traffic without excluding any talk groups?

I have used the FCC license search system to locate the company's license registration for two call signs, and the associated frequencies for both. I have programmed it into my scanner as both DMR and MotoTRBO system types, using ID search and Color Code Search. I have monitored it for several days, but I haven't heard any traffic. I am 11 miles from the transmitters, at a lower elevation, but I am running a discone antenna on a 30' mast. I haven't tried taking my portable closer to the transmitter yet, but I understand that they use several of the frequencies for daily operations for field employees within a 30 mile radius, so I'd think they'd be transmitting enough power to reach me.
I do not know what type of system they are running, but he has told me that he knows that it is "digital". He stated that he could listen in the past, on his analog scanner, but that stopped when they upgraded to "digital". He says that he has confirmed the "digital" upgrade via his former coworkers.
How can I identify what type of system they are operating, and how can I identify proper programming so that I can monitor their traffic?

For reference:
Business Name: Delek (Lion Oil Refinery)
Location: El Dorado, Union County, Arkansas
Call Sign #1: WQTD702 [FCC]
Call Sign #2: WQWC559 [FCC]

Scanner: Uniden SDS100 and SDS200 with DMR/MotoTRBO upgrade/key installed. Do not have ProVoice, NXDN, or Waterfall upgrades.

All police, fire, and ems in this area operate on DMR or P25 Phase II.

I have located a RR DB entry for another DELEK refinery (Call Sign WQQD769 [RRDB] [FCC]) that is located in Big Spring, Howard County, Texas. They are running MotoTRBO.

 

[RaleighGuy]

In the FCC database go to the frequency page and like on one of the frequencies and you'll see the emission designator like 11K0F3Ewhich is from WQTD702. Then check it in the RR Wiki.

Emission Designator - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

MY QUESTION: How can I identify the type of system (DMR, MotoTRBO, APCO P25, etc.) in use on a known/given frequency for a local company, and how can I ensure proper programming to monitor ALL traffic without excluding any talk groups?

Best way to identify system type is by listening and observing said frequency & logging what other frequencies on the license are active. Don't go by emission designators alone on a license. Plenty of licenses out there where the licensee utilizes DMR or some other digital mode but the license only contains analog emissions designators. A new DMR networked conventional system for a school district near me just came online. Emissions designators only reflect analog & NXDN. Listen, observe and log your findings and you'll be golden

 

[downeydigs]

Best way to identify system type is by listening and observing said frequency & logging what other frequencies on the license are active. Don't go by emission designators alone on a license. Plenty of licenses out there where the licensee utilizes DMR or some other digital mode but the license only contains analog emissions designators. A new DMR networked conventional system for a school district near me just came online. Emissions designators only reflect analog & NXDN. Listen, observe and log your findings and you'll be golden

I’ve been working on reading and researching how the emissions designation can help me determine proper programming.

Your advice brings me back to my original question, how do I listen if I don’t know the correct programming or if I have the correct programming configured but am out of range?

 

[mmckenna]

Your advice brings me back to my original question, how do I listen if I don’t know the correct programming or if I have the correct programming configured but am out of range?

Your scanner should tell you if there is a signal on the frequency.
You'll use that to search the FCC database to find the emission designator.

FCC Database does NOT tell you much else. It will not give you color codes, talk groups, wether encryption is used, CTCSS/DCS, etc.

That's where the challenge is. Part of this hobby is being a detective. You can benefit from others work by searching this website. Is someone hasn't already done the work for you, then that's an opportunity for you to add to the database.

A lot of the work can be trial and error. If you are out of range of the system, you won't be able to do any testing with your radio.

The only other place to get the programming info is from whoever programmed their radios. But, they are not required to make that information public or share it with anyone.

In other words, welcome to the hobby.

 

[nd5y]

Program it as NFM. See if you hear anything at all. If you can't hear anything over several days then either that frequency isn't used (or rarely used) or you are too far away to recive it.

 

[wtp]

your new musak for the house,

W2SJW - Radio Sounds

 

[downeydigs]

Program it as NFM. See if you hear anything at all.

I programmed it as a conventional NFM a few hours ago, and haven’t heard anything yet. I’m reading and researching now on how/if I can use my SDS100 to listen/monitor and analyze the frequencies for any signal or noises, as others have suggested.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Regarding Callsign #1 you provided, license looks to be trunked. You need to be within range of the system to do any sort of detective work. If they're utilizing all 55 to 75 watts ERP they're authorized for you should get some degree of a pick up on them from a few miles away. Go through every frequency ID'ed as class FB2. Do you hear & see control data on any given channel? If yes then this will give you a clue as to system type. Program the rest conventionally to help you determine how many of the 18 listed frequencies on the license are active. Depending on how active the system is, it may take hours or even days until you determine every confirmed active frequency on the license. Once you've determined which frequencies are confirmed active as well as their tone(s) (NAC, CC(s), RAN(s), etc). Program them in as the applicable trunked system type (MOTOTRBO, NXDN, LTR trunked, etc) turn on ID Search (you need not program any talkgroups yet) then run LCN finder. When the finder finds the LCNs for every active frequency (keep an eye on the screen) press FUNC then SCAN to save the LCNs. If you programmed everything accordingly (confirmed active frequencies, tone(s), LCNs, etc) you should then be able to properly track the system and figure out active talkgroups (assuming traffic carried is not encrypted of course)

 

[downeydigs]

@jhsands Going out on a limb here to ask if you are familiar with current programming for Lion Oil (Delek) Refinery in El Dorado. I know you’re very familiar with the area, and very knowledgeable about radio comms technology and programming. My knowledge and interest in the hobby pretty well stops at listening, but I’m trying to learn to help myself. Every time I think I have something figured out, I get knocked back down a couple notches. lol

 

[jhsands]

@jhsands Going out on a limb here to ask if you are familiar with current programming for Lion Oil (Delek) Refinery in El Dorado. I know you’re very familiar with the area, and very knowledgeable about radio comms technology and programming. My knowledge and interest in the hobby pretty well stops at listening, but I’m trying to learn to help myself. Every time I think I have something figured out, I get knocked back down a couple notches. lol

Lion Oil is a Motorola Capacity system. DSD+ Fastlane will be able to decode it.

You might need the following frequencies in the DSDPLus.frequencies file if DSD+FL does not auto-detect the control channel

As far as programming it in a radio, you're out of luck and me, also.

452.6750
452.4750
452.2500
452.0500
451.9250
451.8625
451.2125
451.0500

 

[Starcom21]

Keep it very simple at first. Listen to the frequency in TUNE mode on your scanner. (Pause on a channel, type in the frequency and press pause again) Your display should give you information. Check all the frequencies for a control channel (on the same frequency 100% of the time).

Or if it is Capacity Plus it will have a rolling CAP+ data "slot" that will move to other frequencies as a channel grant comes in. This is called the "rest" channel. It's sort of like a control channel, but moves around on the system as traffic is broadcast.

If multiple frequencies are carrying the same traffic at the same time, then you could have an IP-based simulcast system (not trunked).

If you want to program in as NFM, while scanning, then note the frequencies that are having data/digital/voice, then listed to those frequencies manually to find out more about what type of system it is.

If you want some help understanding first time monitoring, I have been building "SCAN-AID" wiki page to help with finding new stuff

SCAN-AID - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

 

[Colin9690]

SCAN-AID - The RadioReference Wiki​

wiki.radioreference.com

Thank you for sharing this

 

[downeydigs]

Keep it very simple at first. Listen to the frequency in TUNE mode on your scanner. (Pause on a channel, type in the frequency and press pause again) Your display should give you information. Check all the frequencies for a control channel (on the same frequency 100% of the time).

Or if it is Capacity Plus it will have a rolling CAP+ data "slot" that will move to other frequencies as a channel grant comes in. This is called the "rest" channel. It's sort of like a control channel, but moves around on the system as traffic is broadcast.

If multiple frequencies are carrying the same traffic at the same time, then you could have an IP-based simulcast system (not trunked).

If you want to program in as NFM, while scanning, then note the frequencies that are having data/digital/voice, then listed to those frequencies manually to find out more about what type of system it is.

If you want some help understanding first time monitoring, I have been building "SCAN-AID" wiki page to help with finding new stuff

SCAN-AID - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

I am just now seeing your reply, but thank you very much. This is very helpful. I’m still trying to figure this out. My biggest obstacle has been geography and distance; I’m too far from the site at my house so I have to drive near the site and work from the car. The person I’m working on it for is very near the site, so it won’t be an issue for them.

It is a Capacity Plus system, as I’ve noticed the “Cap+” tag when the control channels have data traffic, while scanning the frequencies as NFM conventional. I’m slowly learning more about this, but I’m definitely remedial at best.

 

[_ka0txw]

Best way to identify system type is by listening and observing said frequency & logging what other frequencies on the license are active. Don't go by emission designators alone on a license. Plenty of licenses out there where the licensee utilizes DMR or some other digital mode but the license only contains analog emissions designators. A new DMR networked conventional system for a school district near me just came online. Emissions designators only reflect analog & NXDN. Listen, observe and log your findings and you'll be golden

This man is 'stellar', use your ears, listen to what 'digital' modes sound like? And you will become familiar quickly.