Icom IC R-8600 -- Is This SDR Already Obsolete ?

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I have an ICR-9000 and have owned a slew of modern receivers in years prior. At present I have no SDR radios (other than some Motorola Astro Sabers FWIW). The R8600 intrigues me, and yes the VHF and UHF bands are down-converted to the HF SDR and as PRCGUY might say;.' There is nothing inauthentic about that'.

I looked at the R8600 in person and what struck me was how tiny it really is. The display and multi-function buttons are tiny. So I am afraid at my advancing decrepitude, I will be better served by the huge instrument panel of my ICR-9000. I can clearly see what "lamps" are lit and stab my shaking fingers at the huge buttons.

I can and might install an SDR "back end" to the radio. There are certain limitations and problems with that,

But certainly I will be able to get a waterfall display and be able to decode digital modes that were not in existence on the day many decades ago, when I handed over my quarterly bonus check of $4,500 to the Electronic Equipment Bank.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

A "Software Defined Radio" was defined in the 90s as a radio that uses computer simulation for basic hardware functions of a radio like IF band width filtering, demodulation, AGC and so on and these functions can be changed or upgraded via software or firmware.

An SDR can be a superhetrodyne with the IF digitized at some point like the R8600 does at VHF/UHF, or it can be a direct conversion where it digitizes the RF spectrum right at the antenna port as the R8600 does in the HF spectrum. SDR has nothing to do with computer control or including a built in computer, but it can include computer control.

So to say the MB1 is a true SDR and the R8600 isn't is just not a correct statement, they are both every bit an SDR and the R8600 is completely "there".

I recall when the HF1000 came out there was consternation about the AGC loop being too slow. What has been done in modern radios to resolve this.

 

[palmerjrusa]

I bought an R8600 today and am bringing it home tomorrow. Super exited! Reading all the posts in here got me all pumped-up especially with regards to HF where I play. It's going to be interesting especially since everything in this shack is old or really old.

You're going to love it...

"As a "Wide Band" or as HF receiver I would rate the Icom IC-R8600 well above the super expensive IC-R9500 for overall receiver AND spectrum display performance. Even beats out all other HF Icom receivers of the past in our view (I have experienced them all). For the price point it's overall performance is just stellar in our testing aside from the LCD touch screen madness that I just don't care for. Some will say it's identical to the IC-7300 transceiver (minis the transmit). Well for overall receiver performance it most certainly is, but as we covered above it definitely is NOT overall ! "

N9EWO Review : Icom IC-R8600 SDR Receiver

Soon I'll try and do some direct comparisons with my AR-5000+3, which should be interesting.

 

[prcguy]

One of the R8600s tested by Rob Sherwood ranked better than Icom's flagship $13,000 HF transceiver in critical RF performance. If you haven't seen Rob's write up on the 8600, especially comparing it to the R9000 or R9500 its in the first post in this thread: https://forums.radioreference.com/icom-receivers/362329-rob-sherwood-r-8600-test-data.html

You're going to love it...

"As a "Wide Band" or as HF receiver I would rate the Icom IC-R8600 well above the super expensive IC-R9500 for overall receiver AND spectrum display performance. Even beats out all other HF Icom receivers of the past in our view (I have experienced them all). For the price point it's overall performance is just stellar in our testing aside from the LCD touch screen madness that I just don't care for. Some will say it's identical to the IC-7300 transceiver (minis the transmit). Well for overall receiver performance it most certainly is, but as we covered above it definitely is NOT overall ! "

N9EWO Review : Icom IC-R8600 SDR Receiver

Soon I'll try and do some direct comparisons with my AR-5000+3, which should be interesting.

 

[ridgescan]

Just exploring basic stuff in HF right now. Still have to learn how to shave noise and crackles etc. Right now am using reduced RFgain for that, until I discover how to get into the "syllabic squelch" prcguy described this rig has I shot a clip of 11175 in USB. Sounds nice! I am running the R8600 through my old Sony STR-D790 A/V receiver for bigger presence and further tailoring of audio. Having fun the first go-round!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv6PQ-EfdCs&feature=youtu.be

 

[prcguy]

For syllabic squelch press the little knob above the main tuning knob (dial C) and select VSC, which is their voice squelch. I suspect ridge will be getting no sleep tonight!

Just exploring basic stuff in HF right now. Still have to learn how to shave noise and crackles etc. Right now am using reduced RFgain for that, until I discover how to get into the "syllabic squelch" prcguy described this rig has I shot a clip of 11175 in USB. Sounds nice! I am running the R8600 through my old Sony STR-D790 A/V receiver for bigger presence and further tailoring of audio. Having fun the first go-round!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv6PQ-EfdCs&feature=youtu.be

 

[ridgescan]

For syllabic squelch press the little knob above the main tuning knob (dial C) and select VSC, which is their voice squelch. I suspect ridge will be getting no sleep tonight!

Thanks prcguy-got it now. Works really well. It would've been cool if they had an adjuster for that feature but I'm happy with it.
Still at it here, even missed dinnertime Just had a snack at 10 and too pumped to go to bed. Just a little longer...

 

[Token]

Well we can agree to disagree. But I will predict this--- with an operational AOR AR ALPHA II showing at the Tokyo Ham Fair this weekend, when Icom makes it's next logical move, which is an update of the famous Icom R9500, to a digital R9600, that unit will incorporate SDR technology not just up to 30 MHz, but throughout the entire spectrum that the radio will cover.

As an added bonus, at its likely price point, all licensing, patents and proprietary rights would have been addressed, and those nagging DMR, Fusion, and other digital modes, will finally be included.

If you "agree to disagree" on prcguy's point then you do not understand SDR.

The R8600 is an SDR, through its entire tuning range. Period. It is Direct Digital Conversion (DDC) from 30 MHz down, and it is multiple conversion to base band above 30 MHz.

You seem to be equating "SDR Technology" with Direct Digital Conversion (DDC), and that just ain't it. As prcguy has correctly pointed out, SDR is not defined as ONLY DDC, although to be sure that is a desired state if price and technology allow. Downconversion to the base band covered by the digitizer is not only acceptable, but a standard feature in the majority of SDRs that work above 30 to 100 MHz. A few support under sampling or direct sampling to higher frequencies, but there are disadvantages to this as they typically (driven by price) do it.

Sure, the desired end state for SDR might be DDC, but that just ain't happening at very high frequencies, unless you have .mil depth pockets. I have seen, and used, SDR based monitoring systems that were ultra wide banded, in excess of 2 GHz instantaneous bandwidth, and capable of tuning to greater than 6 GHz. One thing they all had in common was a big price point, like on the order of $100k or more, with $1M systems not being uncommon.

Everything below is overly simplified, and if we where starting a technical discussion there are holes and inaccuracies scattered throughout. It is meant to be a simplistic picture only, not a design document.

Lets look at the R8600 for example. The upper tuned frequency is 3 GHz. In order to do this as what you are defining as SDR, I mean DDC, the ADC would have to have a sample rate of greater than 6 GS/s (yes, this is not a hard fixed trueism, but a general minimal guideline). Or to put it simply, the current R8600 A/D samples at 122.88 MHz to do the 0-30 MHz range as DDC, you can scale this, and see that 100x (to get to DDC at 3 GHz) the DDC frequency bandwidth would require roughly 100x the A/D sample rate. An A/D with 100x the sample rate would push the R8600 price point up to many times what it is now. 12 GS/s ADCs are running over $10k by themselves, if you want to get a starting price point look at something like the Aeroflex 3035.

By the way, the only technical data I can find on the AOR AR Alpha II calls it "triple conversion". This implies it will work exactly like (with regards to conversion and sampling) the Icom R8600 does when the R8600 is tuned above 30 MHz. Do you have information that it will do no conversion to base band? If so, please share it, and the source.

If you are dreaming of an Icom "R9600" that is DDC through its entire tuning range, I mean no conversion, then you are either dreaming, or looking at a price point that would compete with a new high end luxury sports sedan.

T!

 

[MStep]

The thrust of my original post merely centered on the fact that the lack of DMR and Fusion modes seemed to place the 8600 at a certain disadvantage. As I said, I love the technology, and even had the opportunity to play with and appreciate all the features on the Icom unit, as I knew I would.

As far as a 9600 unit is concerned, I'm sure that most would agree that it seems logical for Icom to have something along those lines at some stage of development and yes, most likely at 3-4x the cost of the 8600. Exactly what such a radio would entail is anyone's guess.

And I will take a look at the Aeroflex 3035, although my piggy bank could probably not accommodate the necessary funds. Thanks for your input.