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DaveNF2G
Guest
Most of the post 9-11 changes were invented because of NYC. Policymakers don't realize that NYC is basically a different planet, and vendors don't care.
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And even more pointedly, because of NYPD. They are on a very distant different planet.
chris
chris
Dave you are right about how I/O is mainly a human problem and law enforcement being the biggest culprit. Just look at the mess in Orange County. You have towns and villages refusing to give out radio frequencies and access to the Orange County Sheriff's Office, who is a potential back-up agency and has a lot of specialized resources.
Why is this happening? Because the villages and towns are scared that the Sheriff's Office will start jumping their calls and the local PD's will "lose numbers". More specifically that the politicians will disband the local PD's and contract with the SO when they see the PD activity levels slip.
In the case you mentioned about PD and Fire not being told of the shared talkgroup I wonder if the issue their is dispatchers being afraid of losing their jobs. (i.e. dispatch is the go-between for PD and FD, and if PD/FD can communicate directly on shared talkgroups then dispatch is no longer needed)
Why is this happening? Because the villages and towns are scared that the Sheriff's Office will start jumping their calls and the local PD's will "lose numbers". More specifically that the politicians will disband the local PD's and contract with the SO when they see the PD activity levels slip.
In the case you mentioned about PD and Fire not being told of the shared talkgroup I wonder if the issue their is dispatchers being afraid of losing their jobs. (i.e. dispatch is the go-between for PD and FD, and if PD/FD can communicate directly on shared talkgroups then dispatch is no longer needed)
We are all preaching to the choir here. The so called lack of interoperability pre 9/11 was the excuse for the failure to evacuate firefighters from WTC and the loss of 343 members. It was pure " cover your ***" and everyone bought it! They would have needed a separate channel for each group of 10 floors in each building to keep the radio traffic to a manageable level. The 2 VHF HT channels they had were completely over whelmed and useless. I know I was there and heard it.
The radio makers were listening too and started the interop band wagon as the solution to all emergency services problems. Now the rank and file would be the blame 'cause we now have INTEROPERABLITY.
The radio makers were listening too and started the interop band wagon as the solution to all emergency services problems. Now the rank and file would be the blame 'cause we now have INTEROPERABLITY.
SteveC0625
Order of the Golden Dino since 1972
Very unlikely. Dispatch is the one group of public safety personnel that actually stick to established communications policy and procedures. If they're not assigning an interop TG for a specific incident, then there's either no plan or procedure to do so or the powers that be don't want it done. Dispatch (especially in the county being discussed here) does not free lance. Police, Fire, and EMS leaders have to decide how they want to do things.
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DaveNF2G
Guest
Exactly. And Steve and I have experienced (or at least observed in action) situations where the agency command made inconsistent policies and procedures and it was usually the dispatcher who got hung out to dry.
(Although there was a notable exception in the case of a fire chief who sent a letter specifying one procedure and then filed a formal complaint when said procedure was followed. The dispatcher was fully backed up by his superiors.)
(Although there was a notable exception in the case of a fire chief who sent a letter specifying one procedure and then filed a formal complaint when said procedure was followed. The dispatcher was fully backed up by his superiors.)
Weather88
Member
I'm going to try and clear up a few things in this thread. These are specific to Saratoga County.
First, I think the biggest reasons that the TACs aren't shared with the police is because there is usually no reason for it to be done. Usually, the police are on scene right next to who they need to talk to, meaning there's no reason for them to be on the Fire/EMS TAC channel because they're standing right next to the other people. Otherwise, the police usually just have one or two messages they need relayed so it would be way more work for them to switch banks and go to the Fire/EMS TAC then it is just to tell dispatch and have it relayed that way. If they switch to the Fire/EMS bank of channels, that means they won't be able to listen to the police bank without switching back and they may be missing important information being relayed on Sheriff's Dispatch or County 911.
However, I will give a great example of interoperability that occurred a few days ago. There was a water rescue in Warren County in Luzerne, just over the county line, and they asked for Corinth Fire and Jessup's Landing EMS. Corinth Fire and Jessup's were assigned a TAC, and they responded up there. When Hadley-Luzerne Fire (who is dispatched by and located in Warren County) came on scene, they were also given the TAC assignment, and all of their operations were also run on the Saratoga County TAC (they have Saratoga County radios in addition to the Warren County radios). There was a State Trooper as well as a Saratoga County Sheriff's Deputy on scene. In this case, the Deputy and Trooper were together but not with the fire personnel as they were investigating the water rescue. When they obtained some important information, the Sheriff's Deputy was given the Fire/EMS TAC, and he switched over and spoke directly to the Fire/EMS personnel on scene. This was a great job of two counties, and fire/ems/police all working together on the same channel.
As far as other Counties getting on the Saratoga County 800 system, there is news on that front. The Saratoga County EMS Council and Fire Advisory Board are working out the protocol's right now on allowing mutual aid departments to be given Saratoga County 800 radios. Certain agencies that go mutual aid to Saratoga County frequently will be given 800 radio's and identifiers very soon. That will alleviate 99% of the problems of communication when an out of county agency enters the county.
First, I think the biggest reasons that the TACs aren't shared with the police is because there is usually no reason for it to be done. Usually, the police are on scene right next to who they need to talk to, meaning there's no reason for them to be on the Fire/EMS TAC channel because they're standing right next to the other people. Otherwise, the police usually just have one or two messages they need relayed so it would be way more work for them to switch banks and go to the Fire/EMS TAC then it is just to tell dispatch and have it relayed that way. If they switch to the Fire/EMS bank of channels, that means they won't be able to listen to the police bank without switching back and they may be missing important information being relayed on Sheriff's Dispatch or County 911.
However, I will give a great example of interoperability that occurred a few days ago. There was a water rescue in Warren County in Luzerne, just over the county line, and they asked for Corinth Fire and Jessup's Landing EMS. Corinth Fire and Jessup's were assigned a TAC, and they responded up there. When Hadley-Luzerne Fire (who is dispatched by and located in Warren County) came on scene, they were also given the TAC assignment, and all of their operations were also run on the Saratoga County TAC (they have Saratoga County radios in addition to the Warren County radios). There was a State Trooper as well as a Saratoga County Sheriff's Deputy on scene. In this case, the Deputy and Trooper were together but not with the fire personnel as they were investigating the water rescue. When they obtained some important information, the Sheriff's Deputy was given the Fire/EMS TAC, and he switched over and spoke directly to the Fire/EMS personnel on scene. This was a great job of two counties, and fire/ems/police all working together on the same channel.
As far as other Counties getting on the Saratoga County 800 system, there is news on that front. The Saratoga County EMS Council and Fire Advisory Board are working out the protocol's right now on allowing mutual aid departments to be given Saratoga County 800 radios. Certain agencies that go mutual aid to Saratoga County frequently will be given 800 radio's and identifiers very soon. That will alleviate 99% of the problems of communication when an out of county agency enters the county.
gralston73
Member
The reason why Luzerne Fire has Saratoga County radios is because they cover Hadley...which is in Saratoga County. They have always had Saratoga County radios and identifiers...
Weather88
Member
Correct, however they rarely operate on Saratoga County's system.
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DaveNF2G
Guest
This is not a determination that can or should be made in advance. If there is a need, then they need it - right then. They should have the information already so they can communicate.
Then the radios are misconfigured. The low numbered TACs are designated Police/Fire/EMS. They should be in the primary bank in radios operated by every service.
That is a rather expensive (and otherwise complex) solution. Why not use the NIFOG channels, which are up and running? Why should Saratoga County taxpayers be buying hardware for agencies in the 7 bordering counties? What is the point of the Adirondack crossband repeaters? Fulton and Warren county agencies should already be able to use those, which are on VHF high band. There is no need to give them radios purchased by those of us who live in Saratoga County.
Again, a technological solution to a human problem. Interoperability is available already without making people carry more radios. As SteveC pointed out earlier, someone needs to make the necessary decisions and then communicate the necessary information to implement what is already in place. All of this should have been done before 800 MHz was even switched on.
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