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Inversion Scrambling....

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Seven-Delta-FortyOne

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I know it's low security.

I have some Kenwood's that have the ability, and in the programming software you assign a scramble number. I think it's like 4000 different numbers to choose from.

I also know that some cheaper radios will have 10 or so "preset" scrambler codes.

So what I'm wondering is, who, and how will someone, actually be able to find the individual scramble code out of 4000 or so, without merely getting extremely lucky?

I've never seen a "scrambler scanner" readily available, but then again, I don't hang out on the dark web much.:ROFLMAO:

So what is the chance someone will find my code, and listen in?
 

mmckenna

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Yeah, pretty much.

Depends on the specific radio, though.
The TK-x180's have two options:
1. Voice Inversion Scrambler on/off
2. If you add the after market board, you can have the choice of scrambler codes 1-16.

The difference between the voice inversion codes is degrees of phase shift. The standard Kenwood is 180º
 

mmckenna

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Ramsey Kits used to sell a voice inversion descrambler. I had one somewhere, but probably got rid of it a long time ago.

It's not secure by any means, but it'll keep the casual listener out.
 

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

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I have some 3402/2402 HT units.

So basically, there isn't really an off-the-shelf method of listening in on my comms? Your basic scanner user won't have a method of descrambling?
 
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mmckenna

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I have some 3402/2402 HT units.

So basically, there isn't really an off-the-shelf method of listening in on my comms? Your basic scanner user won't have a method of descrambling?


So, pretty easy, but I'm not aware of any off the shelf scanners that have this. I could be wrong, though (just ask my wife).

I wouldn't say it's secure, but it'll stump the casual listener. If you really want security, you either need a better scrambler, or go digital.
 

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

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I'm partial to analog still, it's pretty rugged terrain up here, and I guess analog has better range than digital.

Although I've not ever experimented with digital of any sort.

But digital with AES would be pretty cool. Just beyond my price range at the moment. :oops:
 

mancow

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The difference is between fixed or rolling split points. The rolling are much more secure.
 

prcguy

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Some of the AOR scanners had a built in inversion descrambler. I had an AR8200 MKIII with a factory plug in descrambler that worked then upgraded that scanner to the P25 version and the descrambler was then just built in. I do have the plug in descrambler card left over which probably fits any AR8200 MKIII.

I have some 3402/2402 HT units.

So basically, there isn't really an off-the-shelf method of listening in on my comms? Your basic scanner user won't have a method of descrambling?
 

iMONITOR

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deinvert: A Voice Inversion Descrambler
 

DeoVindice

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I'm partial to analog still, it's pretty rugged terrain up here, and I guess analog has better range than digital.

Although I've not ever experimented with digital of any sort.

But digital with AES would be pretty cool. Just beyond my price range at the moment. :oops:

Terrain has been a major driver of my radio selection as well. Digital is out because of poor weak-signal performance.

I've decided to go back to the future and primarily use low band, with some UHF handhelds for use in town. Nothing "bends" around terrain like low band.
 

jim202

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Back in the early days of speech inversion, our local police department used the speech inversion for a while. Being the tech geek, I took an audio generator and connected it into the audio output of my receiver and started playing around. It didn't take long to find the correct frequency to beat against the receiver audio and hear fairly clearly what was being said.

This is why the basic speech inversion didn't last long. People found a way to get around the simple coding that many agencies were using. This then caused the radio companies to come up with a better secure way of encoding the radio communications. The results are what we have today.

The down side to the new encoding was that many agencies do not change their encryption key on a regular basis. It is just too much effort and labor intense to change the key. Plus while the fleet is being updated, you have radios that once they are re keyed will play well. Those radios that have not been re keyed can't communicate. In a big fleet of radios, this can become a major issue.
 

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

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Thanks for all the help, folks.

I'm not a PS Agency, so my desire for scramble is just to deter casual eavesdropping. I use the radios for daily ranch activities, and it's pretty remote. Some folks can get a bit candid from time to time, so I thought that a basic inversion scramble could utilize most of the equipment I already have.

Which brings me to another question: If I got a scramble board for the TK 280's, for example, How do you coordinate the 16 codes on the 280's, with the thousands of available codes on the TK2402's? Does Kenwood publish the numbers for the codes on the 280's?

And in addition, I'm looking to upgrade to 7180's for the base stations. Currently, I'm using 780's, which don't have scramble ability.

Do the 7180's have the same codes as the 2402's?

If this is too much info to request from the board, I do apologize. I'm not trying to get someone to design my system for me for free. :oops:

I do have alocal Kenwood dealer that I use form time to time.

Thanks.
 

mmckenna

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They should match up.

Getting the Kenwoods to talk will be easy. If you use after market boards, you might have to work with the manufacturer to find the matching frequency offset.

The TK-2402 doesn't really have "thousands" of codes. It has a selectable offset frequency (2000Hz - 4096Hz in 1Hz increments) that you can program into 16 available slots. One of the optional codes is "Kenwood", which will be common across all their radios.

The TK-7180 has the included Kenwood voice inversion standard. To access more optional codes, you'd need to install the optional scrambler board.
 

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

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So what does this mean in use?

If I set one radio to 3300Hz, and another to 3650Hz, I assume the users would not be able to understand each other?

What if one was 3300, and one was 3301? Would it be close enough to be understandable, but slightly distorted?
 

mmckenna

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So what does this mean in use?

If I set one radio to 3300Hz, and another to 3650Hz, I assume the users would not be able to understand each other?

What if one was 3300, and one was 3301? Would it be close enough to be understandable, but slightly distorted?

Depends. 350hz off isn't that bad think Donald Duck/Chipmunks. 1hz off won't be noticeable.

If you really want secure, you need rolling code scramblers, but that's going to cost you. Or, go digital. With analog/stock scramblers, it's a "best effort" sort of thing. It'll keep casual listeners out.
 

70cutlass442

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I've always liked inversion. IDK why. In high school is used the above program and was successful in decoding inversion. I also bought the Motorola cordless phone that was scrambled. Then I moved on to secure net when all that got cheap enough. Audio quality and range lacked though
 
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