Kenwood Two-Way Radio Network Zones Auto Switch

[Cyberdrimz]

Hi everyone,

We are currently running a Kenwood NXDN Type-C trunked system with NX-3000 series radios and NX-5700 repeaters. The system we have has 7 sites, that have overlapping coverage, and also site roaming is working fine.

What we would like want is for the radios to auto-switch zones (separate from site roaming) so that users can always see the most relevant local talkgroups/tactical channels for the site they are on, without having to switch zones manually.

Questions:

Is auto zone switching supported in NXDN Type-C?

If yes, what triggers it: GPS, affiliated site, or something else?

Is it set up in KPG-D3, or how?

Any best practices/limitations for multi-site overlap?

I would appreciate any insights or examples from those who have done this.

Thanks!

 

[kd4efm]

That's not an option unless the system has different system ID'S.

Zone switching is a manual process.
Good question though.
👍🏻

 

[TampaTyron]

Not available in any other brand that I am aware of either.

We have users change zones based on role and/or physical location.

TT

 

[Cyberdrimz]

Not available in any other brand that I am aware of either.

We have users change zones based on role and/or physical location.

TT

Thank you very much, Tyron, for that clear and helpful answer you have provided. Actually, we are currently using manual zone changing. But I would like to find out if there is a way we could automate it in a way so that a user does not miss critical communications due to, maybe, forgetting to switch to the right channel.

Just on this, to make the system as efficient as possible for our users, I would like to ask about scanning configurations.

Our goal is to ensure that a user in one zone (e.g., 'Pit 1') does not miss any critical communications happening on another channel (e.g., the main 'MAIN_Operation' channel in a different zone).

1. Priority Scan Between Zones:
Is it possible to set up a scan list that includes channels from multiple different zones and have it scan seamlessly? For example, can a radio in the 'Pit 1' zone scan its local channels and the 'MAIN_Operation' channel from the 'Common' zone?

2. Auto-Scan Best Practice:
What is the best way to implement this?

• Is there a way to set a scan list to auto-start whenever the radio powers on?
• Is it better to create one large system-wide scan list or smaller, role-based, or zone-based scan lists?

3. Performance Impact:
In a Type-C trunking system, is there any noticeable performance hit or delay in voice reception when a radio is actively scanning multiple talkgroups across different zones?

We want to use scanning to compensate for the manual zone switching and ensure safety and awareness. Any guidance on how you configure this for your users would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your expertise; I really appreciate your earlier response.

 

[tweiss3]

I think some of your logic is flawed.

First, if you are saying "MAIN_Operation" needs to be heard by everyone, but is only on site X, that's part of your problem. The system should be revised to have all sites carry the "MAIN_Operation" talk group regardless of affiliation. You shouldn't have to scan to an adjacent site to pick up a necessary talkgroup.

Second, scanning between sites will have a lag involved. I cannot tell you how much, but it may be enough to miss traffic from just that.

Thirdly, I don't know enough about NXDN trunking, but I believe TG scanning could be used. In NXDN coventional, its GroupID Scan which is basically an RX group for all the talkgroups you want to hear. Everything in my head screams you need to stay on one site and give up on the idea of multi-site scanning. If you have too much overlap, perhaps you need to adjust your roaming parameters to encourage roaming between sites sooner.

 

[Cyberdrimz]

I think some of your logic is flawed.

First, if you are saying "MAIN_Operation" needs to be heard by everyone, but is only on site X, that's part of your problem. The system should be revised to have all sites carry the "MAIN_Operation" talk group regardless of affiliation. You shouldn't have to scan to an adjacent site to pick up a necessary talkgroup.

Second, scanning between sites will have a lag involved. I cannot tell you how much, but it may be enough to miss traffic from just that.

Thirdly, I don't know enough about NXDN trunking, but I believe TG scanning could be used. In NXDN coventional, its GroupID Scan which is basically an RX group for all the talkgroups you want to hear. Everything in my head screams you need to stay on one site and give up on the idea of multi-site scanning. If you have too much overlap, perhaps you need to adjust your roaming parameters to encourage roaming between sites sooner.

Hi tweiss3,

Thank you for the response; I appreciate it. My apologies; my initial description was unclear and created a misunderstanding.
We operate a 7-site NXDN Type-C system with overlapping coverage. Our MAIN_Operation talkgroup is indeed carried on all sites.
This channel is intentionally busy because users are encouraged to keep it active for safety reasons.

Management has tasked us to segment the traffic from the single MAIN_Operation into 4 new talkgroups based on geographic areas:

• MAIN_Operation (systemwide)
• Area_A
• Area_B
• Arae_C

maintained MAIN_Operation for other calls such as emergencies and blasting.

The problem is now entirely user adherence. We rely on users to manually switch zones and select the correct channel as they move between areas throughout their shift. This is prone to error and missed communications.

What we would like is:

• Users always hear MAIN_Operation.
• But PTT defaults to their local TG (A/B/C), not MAIN.

Is this possible in NXDN Trunking Type-C through TG Scan / roaming parameters / RX-only setup in KPG-D3, or would it need a system-side design change?


We are looking for the most effective way to solve this human-factor problem within the constraints of the Kenwood NXDN system.

Thank you again for your expert insight

 

[dryfb]

Hi tweiss3,

Thank you for the response; I appreciate it. My apologies; my initial description was unclear and created a misunderstanding.
We operate a 7-site NXDN Type-C system with overlapping coverage. Our MAIN_Operation talkgroup is indeed carried on all sites.
This channel is intentionally busy because users are encouraged to keep it active for safety reasons.

Management has tasked us to segment the traffic from the single MAIN_Operation into 4 new talkgroups based on geographic areas:

• MAIN_Operation (systemwide)
• Area_A
• Area_B
• Arae_C

maintained MAIN_Operation for other calls such as emergencies and blasting.

The problem is now entirely user adherence. We rely on users to manually switch zones and select the correct channel as they move between areas throughout their shift. This is prone to error and missed communications.

What we would like is:

• Users always hear MAIN_Operation.
• But PTT defaults to their local TG (A/B/C), not MAIN.

Is this possible in NXDN Trunking Type-C through TG Scan / roaming parameters / RX-only setup in KPG-D3, or would it need a system-side design change?


We are looking for the most effective way to solve this human-factor problem within the constraints of the Kenwood NXDN system.

Thank you again for your expert insight

Just set up a simple scan list that has Main selected, and then unselect every other channel and in the scan settings, check a box titled something like "Selected CH/GID Scan". The radio scans the channel it's on, and when they move channels it won't keep scanning the channel they moved from. I really, really recommend not doing this yourself and instead talking with a dealer or someone in real life who has experience with NXDN Type C subscriber programming, especially considering it sounds like you're working with a mine and no radio comms could actually screw someone over. Ditch the idea of zones too, just 4 channels. Make MAIN the first and last channel in the zone and turn Rollover to End Stop for ease of finding it in emergencies. In the scan settings you also have the choice of revert channel. Select an option with Talkback if you want users to be able to respond to a call on a different channel than what they're on, so if the user is on Area A and someone talks on Main, they can key up and respond. Change it Selected Channel if you want a key up to ALWAYS talk on the Area TG, even if the radio is active on Main.

Apologies for convoluted descriptions, trying my best to describe it someone who doesn't sound familiar with KPG programming, and I have never used or gotten to play around with D3 so this is all based off of NX300 programming

 

[mmckenna]

I run a Type C system.
I agree with the others. Make this simple. If safety is their concern, managers making design choices without understanding how radio systems work is a really, really bad idea.

I don't know of any way to get around radio users having to change talk groups based on what you are saying. Training is always the hard part.

-ALL- our radios have an "Emergency" talkgroup in the last slot. Twist the knob all the way over and you are there. I also set up the orange button on the side of the NX-3000's to go to that group.

You can set up scan to monitor that if you need to.

But not sure how to get around users having to remember to change the talk group based on location.

 

[Cyberdrimz]

Just set up a simple scan list that has Main selected, and then unselect every other channel and in the scan settings, check a box titled something like "Selected CH/GID Scan". The radio scans the channel it's on, and when they move channels it won't keep scanning the channel they moved from. I really, really recommend not doing this yourself and instead talking with a dealer or someone in real life who has experience with NXDN Type C subscriber programming, especially considering it sounds like you're working with a mine and no radio comms could actually screw someone over. Ditch the idea of zones too, just 4 channels. Make MAIN the first and last channel in the zone and turn Rollover to End Stop for ease of finding it in emergencies. In the scan settings you also have the choice of revert channel. Select an option with Talkback if you want users to be able to respond to a call on a different channel than what they're on, so if the user is on Area A and someone talks on Main, they can key up and respond. Change it Selected Channel if you want a key up to ALWAYS talk on the Area TG, even if the radio is active on Main.

Apologies for convoluted descriptions, trying my best to describe it someone who doesn't sound familiar with KPG programming, and I have never used or gotten to play around with D3 so this is all based off of NX300 programming

Hi dryfb, Got it, thank you, and I appreciate it. The Selected CH/GID Scan with revert options makes sense. We will check with a dealer before implementing after we are done with what we have engaged the dealer on, who in turn has engaged Kenwood for the issue or workaround of the split that we usually have when our master site goes off or something happens to it. When site X goes off, all the other 6 sites will work independently of each other, and the conversations are split according to the site the group or one is turned in to. Thank you alot once more for the expert advice you have given.

 

[Cyberdrimz]

I run a Type C system.
I agree with the others. Make this simple. If safety is their concern, managers making design choices without understanding how radio systems work is a really, really bad idea.

I don't know of any way to get around radio users having to change talk groups based on what you are saying. Training is always the hard part.

-ALL- our radios have an "Emergency" talkgroup in the last slot. Twist the knob all the way over and you are there. I also set up the orange button on the side of the NX-3000's to go to that group.

You can set up scan to monitor that if you need to.

But not sure how to get around users having to remember to change the talk group based on location.

Hi mmckenna, Thank you for your response; I appreciate it. We have also set the orange button for emergency. Holding it for a few seconds forces the radio back to MAIN_Operation, so safety traffic is always guaranteed. The challenge remains that users need to switch between segmented channels (A, B, and C) as they navigate sites. We will now investigate whether scan lists with “Selected CH/GID Scan” and different revert options in KPG-D3 could help simplify this process, allowing users to monitor MAIN while always TX on their assigned area without relying fully on training, as suggested by dryfb in the comment above. Since you run the system like ours, do you experience radio splits? If not, how have you dealt with the issue of a split? When site X goes off, for instance, all the other 6 sites will work independently of each other, and the conversations are split according to the site the users are turned into. Thank you a lot once more for the expert advice you have given.