KFOR new radar

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What a freakin joke. Look at the radar sweep my grandma drives faster to church. What a waste of money at blazing speed of 12 degrees per second. And everyone thats in the business knows what kinda of software EEC ( maker of the radar) makes. They should of kept the million
 

K5MAR

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For those of you that don't live in the Okla. City broadcast area, the NBC affiliate, KFOR Ch. 4, has just unveiled a new million watt Doppler radar. Needless to say, they're plugging this like it's the best thing since sliced beer in cans (or something like that :lol: ). Here's their website if you'd like more info. http://www.kfor.com/

Mark S.
 

WhatsnOKC

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Fact: They can turn the antenna faster than 12 degrees per second.

Then why don't they?

Because in reality, when you go much past 12 degrees per second, the antenna probably does not have enough time to receive a return echo from a distant storm (laws of physics I'm guessing) before the dish turns away from the storm. This also can be a processor burden issue as well. You'll notice when the "fastest radar in the world" turns at 20-30 degrees per second, storms in western Oklahoma start looking elongated (smeared). Even they discovered I was right when I emailed them about this exact thing and have been slowing it down when storms are far away from the radar.

Obviously the "radar wars" are on again, and the clear cut winner will be determined in the future. The question is who will be the first to install a dual-polarized radar that can see the size of the hail stones, debris, snow flakes, etc and tell the difference. One such radar is already in the hands of the National Weather Service. Do a web search for KOUN Dual Pol and you shall find it. :D
 

mdulrich

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dbestfirefighter said:
What a freakin joke. Look at the radar sweep my grandma drives faster to church. What a waste of money at blazing speed of 12 degrees per second.

12 degree/second or 30 seconds to do a complete sweep. How far is a storm going to move in 30 seconds? Actually that is pretty fast. The NWS radars are typically 6 minutes between scans during storms.

Mike
 

CommShrek

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Wait a minute. Where is the radar site at? This may not be a "new" radar at all.
 

crayon

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Twobravo said:
Wait a minute. Where is the radar site at? This may not be a "new" radar at all.
Somewhere south of the metro.

As my wife and were flipping through the channels we saw the little infomercial about it too. They were talking about how most of the storms roll in from the SW, so that is where they decided to put it. This way, as the reasoning goes, they will be able to have advance warning.

We laughed so hard!! It would be so funny to have the next major tornado take out the new radar.

Tornados are saying, "You want advance warning .. here is your advance warning. BOO! Surprise!"

:)
 

K5MAR

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Twobravo said:
Wait a minute. Where is the radar site at? This may not be a "new" radar at all.

Southwest of Moore, or it looks like it's straight west of Norman about 10-12 miles, they way they show it on the map.

It's new, they showed the construction on the special they aired. In fact in a couple of live shots they aired during the unveiling Monday night on the 10 PM newscast, you could make out the crane in the background.

Mark S.
 
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I believe its on highway 277 south of newcastle....thats what okcity approach was telling other traffic in the area when the helicopter was doing live shots
 

n5bew1

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Uh Oh! The TV WX radar wars are gettin' kicked up a notch...hee hee.
That's why I don't watch the big 3 networks during bad weather you can't see any regular programming for all the hoopla.
Ken KC5OU
 

grack

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I was really expecting to be impressed with the new radar, but KWTV's MOAR still looks better to my untrained eyes.
 

K5MAR

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n5bew1 said:
... during bad weather you can't see any regular programming for all the hoopla.

And this is a problem??? :?
At least the weather is interesting, which is more than I can say about the regular programming. :lol:
Weather - The real reality show! :wink:

Mark S.
 

n5bew1

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No 90 % the regular programming is junk the constant pandering to the ratings gods is what gets old. In my case after years of storm spotting ( not storm chasing) I am burnt out on "severe weather" coverage. I maintain an awareness of bad wx but don't worship it.
Ken
 

K5MAR

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I don't worship it, I enjoy it. A good t-storm is FUN! :lol: :lol:

I started as a spotter for Bartlesville Civil Defense in 1970, and I'm currently a roving spotter reporting to Stillwater and other area emergency management agencies. If I have a free day and the activity isn't nearby then I'll hop in the truck and go chasing. This may be for an OKC TV station, or strictly for my own purposes. Right now I'm looking for a classic funnel shot to use as the background for my new QSL card.

I'd much rather watch Rick Mitchell showing a line of severe storms developing in northwest Oklahoma on my 5" LCD TV in my truck than sit at home not watching Oprah or Dr. Phil, or some assinine soap.

Mark S.
 

n5bew1

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Sorry my tv tastes run towards the Discovery Science channel, History channel, or PBS. Watch what you will that is why I have digital cable.
End of discussion.
 

2112

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Because in reality, when you go much past 12 degrees per second, the antenna probably does not have enough time to receive a return echo from a distant storm (laws of physics I'm guessing) before the dish turns away from the storm. This also can be a processor burden issue as well. You'll notice when the "fastest radar in the world" turns at 20-30 degrees per second, storms in western Oklahoma start looking elongated (smeared). Even they discovered I was right when I emailed them about this exact thing and have been slowing it down when storms are far away from the radar.

Actually, this is not true... the speed of light is some 186,282 miles per second. Even if the radar beam is going out 100 miles before echoing, that's only a 200-mile round trip. Total time for this round trip would be around a thousandth of a second. In that time, a radar beam translating at 30 degrees per second (12-second full sweep) would have moved only approximately 0.030 degrees, or at the distance of 100 miles, only 276 feet. At 100 miles, 276 feet is much smaller than the measurable interval of the radar. So, that means that a 30-degree per second angular velocity really does nothing to affect the performance of the radar getting accurate data back.

This, of course, is assuming that the radar can even get out that far. I doubt that because of the nominal tilt of the radar to allow it to get above ground clutter, the data this radar receives from echoes 100 miles distant will not be representative of surface conditions, because even at 0.5 degrees above horizontal at the antenna (a fairly low base tilt), the radar beam will be over 9000 feet above the surface (the result of beam height AND surface of the earth dropping away due to the planet's curvature). The stuff that's real dangerous to us is happening in the lowest 1000-2000 feet of the atmosphere... so a radar scan of stuff that much higher than that isn't going to help us much. That's why the NWS depends on a network of these radars as opposed to the TV stations' stand-alone units or pairs of units (as is the case for KFOR).


12 degree/second or 30 seconds to do a complete sweep. How far is a storm going to move in 30 seconds? Actually that is pretty fast. The NWS radars are typically 6 minutes between scans during storms.

The reason that the TV radar can complete a sweep in 30 seconds and the NWS radar can complete a sweep in 6 minutes (or 5 minutes if they really want to beat the crap out of the radar) is that the TV radar is not doing a volume scan... it scans at only one level. The NWS radar completes a scan at it's lowest level, and then it tilts the antenna up a degree or two and sweeps again, and then it tilts the antenna up a couple more degrees or two and sweeps again, and so forth, until it has completed what's called a "volume scan". There are two preciptiation mode sweep patterns, one that does 9 tilt levels in 6 minutes, and another that does 14 tilt levels in 5 minutes. If you want to work it out, the sweep speed of the former works out to be 9 degrees/second and the latter is almost 17 degrees/second.

But then again, it's not all about speed of sweep. A faster sweep speed will return data faster, but it makes the radar less sensitive. A slower sweep speed, like that which the NWS radars run at when there is no precipitation ("clear-air mode") allows the radar to scan a certain area for a longer time and therefore be more sensitive.

So, the TV radars return data at one level. That's what the OLD NWS radars used to do... single-level return. No volume-scanning. Or maybe a second tilt at best. Getting data back for one level is certainly faster, but it really isn't any better than the radar of the 70's and 80's (except maybe that's it's Doppler radar as opposed to reflectivity-only conventional radar). I understand that the weather wars mean that faster is more important, and that's why you'll hear the TV stations tout their Whopper Doppler 1,000,000 radar's scan speed to be so fast... because they want you to come to them for you will believe to be the fastest updates. I'll guarantee you, though, that any real meteorologist on TV is using the NWS radar data to make their forecasts.


I believe its on highway 277 south of newcastle....

I believe that's correct... I pass it on the way to work everyday... it's just north of Highway 9.

Me? I don't watch TV for weather information. The weather wars have degenerated the genre of public notification in times of bad weather to one of greed and snake oil while trying to make you believe they are passing quality data. I'd rather be informed than entertained and misled when my life is threatened. But hey... at least they got flashy computer animations and pretty colors.
 
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2112 said ". I'll guarantee you, though, that any real meteorologist on TV is using the NWS radar data to make their forecasts. " Would you like to make a bet with that.. In fact your totally backwards the NWS/SPC has television sets in the office to watch what the tv stations are saying about specific storms. I know this to be true... When i went to work for one of the TV stations in the OKC area I thought as you did that they are making weather into to big of a deal, and all they are really concerned with is ratings. But one of the first weather meetings I had with the News director
changed all of that. This person said " I want people to want to trust us with their lives when it comes to severe weather " thats a big responsibility.... And being in a my news room during severe weather believe me when i say ratings are the last thing anyone is thinking about.
 

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The best mets use both... NEXRAD for volume scan and the algorithms, Live for the latest location and the ability to run vertical slices and/or sector scans.
 
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