Legally Breaking Encryption

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rvictor

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You're joking, right?

a) Even a DES key would take you YEARS to break by experimentation.

b) 3DES is considered unbreakable for practical purposes

c) The AES algorithm is considered by the NSA to be acceptable for the encryption of data classified as Top Secret, when it's used with either a 192 bit or a 256 bit key. This means it is sufficiently close to impossible to break with existing technology as to be considered "unbreakable".

Motorola radios (the only ones I know about) can be configured to use DES, 3DES, or AES with key sizes up to 256 bits.

So, just let me get this right: You, sitting at home with a couple of radios, seriously believe that you've discovered a way to break an encryption alogrithm that the NSA has declared safe for TOP SECRET information?

Forgein governments have rooms full of super-computers and mathematicians and they're not able to break AES 256 encryption. But you can?

C'mon... Does that make sense to you?

Peter
K1PGV

You've hit on a significant point here. Key length is a very important variable. If you use a very short key, even the most complex encryption algorithms are vulnerable. No one with any knowledge about these things uses a very short key. If I recall correctly, for each additional bit of key length, the solution becomes twice as difficult. Even with a lot of spare time, a 256 bit key is beyond the ability to solve by trial and error (brute force). Some day they may have computers fast and powerful enough to solve 256 bit AES encryption. Then they will use 512 bit encryption and it's again beyond the ability to break.

Dick

Dick
 

chrismol1

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If its encrypted, then theres a reason. The activity is not meant to be monitored by an outside party. Simple.
 

RKG

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The original premise of the OP -- namely that the prohibition on the interception of encrypted transmission lies in the FCC regulations, and that the prohibition is limited to interception via a "scanner" device -- is quite wrong. The prohibition on intercepting encrypted transmissions is statutory and quite insensitive to the device employed.
 
N

N_Jay

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Yes, we already established that the OP was off base from the second post.

It just took a while to get past his arguing to get to the "intelligent discussion" he said he wanted but refused to believe.
 

Harry_Dick

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It is impossible. If you want to monitor E channels you would have a better chance finding a radio tech and courting them with love notes or whatever until you get a radio programmed to the system. Just dont key up.
 

KC9NCF

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I want to thank those who actually contributed intelligent material to this thread. I was looking to learn something but was instead, accused of "not believing" something that was said here or there, and the thread went anywhere but where I wanted it to go. I wanted to test my idea or theory out amongst people who know more than I in this area, and although I learned some useful stuff, I also learned that asking any type of question on a radio forum or posing a theory or idea is just not a good idea because everyone has a differing slant on what "the OP" said or meant, or whatever.

I'll stick to going to my public library from now on. It's no skin off your backs I'm sure, but the attitudes of most were horrible because they ran with their first perception instead of actually asking where I was going and why I had the idea or theory I had. Radio of any type in regards to hobbyism is about trying to learn whatever you can whenever you can.

I don't expect any of the negative attitudes will change because it's always assumed that someone who isn't a pro in the field or who isn't close to a number of pros in the field is just a worthless troublemaker and it's always assumed that if you are into radio that you should be expected to already know everything at some elite expert level.

I'm sorry I don't fit in with your pre-conceived notions. Actually, no I'm not...I have come to know people in this hobby who are more than willing to be helpful instead of trying to "set someone straight". Thanks once again to those of you who did come here to help me understand something.
 

RayAir

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The above refers to LEGALLY using and listening to encryption. Now, I am going to point out that FCC rules simply state that a person may NOT use a scanner to receive an encrypted signal. It says "scanner". I posted this in another thread and I'll post it in this original thread. I am asking that it stay on topic and that there not be any trolling.

tonsoffun shut down the latest encryption thread because it was going south in a hurry and he was right to do it.

Here's what you need to know:

1. Don't use a scanner

2. Get licensed for a service that is allowed to experiment with or use encryption. Public safety is not the only service that is allowed to use encryption and experiment with it and I highly advise that no one go playing on public safety freqs...again look into the other radio services you can get licensed for where it is allowed.

3. Once you have your license for the proper service, go buy a Motorola radio or other comparable radio from a well known manufacturer. When you buy the radio, it will automatically come with programming software for your specific service and if not, it shouldn't cost all that much.

4. Go buy an OpenSky, DES, or other encryption package of your choice since you are now legal to possess and use it.

5. Use your commercial radio for which you are licensed to program in the RX only freq's you wish to listen to. Be sure to first program your copmmercial rig with the licensed TX freqs and add your other desired freqs after the fact.

This is a solution for people who have money to blow and still be able to be secure in their daily lives. Who's gonna know what you're listening to in spite of regulations unless YOU brag about it? So, don't ruin this loophole for all of us by bragging about what you're doing.

6. once you have the appropriate encryption package in your licensed service, you can now use it to scan for the encryption key you desire. It goes to "technical incidence" while you were experimenting and the fact that most radios are able to be programmed beyond their intended service as part of it's most normal functioning aspects.

Tell nobody what you are doing unless you have a good attorney on hand who will be willing to fight for your ability to do all of this since you are not truly breaking any laws because you are NOT using a "scanner". The communications act defines a "scanner" quite well and commercial rigs are not in the current definition of what a scanner is. Have fun everyone!

Yeah right. It ain't that easy (I wish it were). Your only hope would be to bribe someone for the encryption key. Everything you stated is virtually impossible. There are some workarounds for unencrypted digital such as TRBO, Nexedge and ProVoice, but it is impossible to monitor Open Sky even if you had an Open Sky radio. There are also some workarounds for some analog scrambling systems such as fixed inversion, split band and some rolling/hopping code, but 99% of the time you won't find analog scrambling in use, but digital encryption. And good luck "scanning" for a DES or AES key.
 

RayAir

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Soon after Motorola Securenet was offered in the 80's, I was provided two MX300 portables with DVP, keyloader, and service manual. After six months of EE and CS technical time, it was concluded that it was an exercise in futility to attempt to "break" a well planned non orthogonal encryption key. The level of attack was predicated on one having typical technical resources at the time.

And DVP is the watered down version offering a little more than 4,000,000,000 possible keys. DES has over 72,000,000,000,000,000 possible keys. My understanding was DVP was intended for commercial users with DES secure radios supposedly being "government use only" originally.
 

Squad10

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I'll stick to going to my public library from now on. It's no skin off your backs I'm sure, but the attitudes of most were horrible because they ran with their first perception instead of actually asking where I was going and why I had the idea or theory I had. Radio of any type in regards to hobbyism is about trying to learn whatever you can whenever you can.

When you hit the library, be certain to seek out The Codebreakers, writer David Kahn and The Puzzle Palace, author James Bamford. Both reads will give you an idea of the task at hand.
 

Evert

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KC9NCF, I think you need to cowboy up a bit and learn how to deal better with situations where not everyone complies with exactly what you think is an acceptable response. Giving up and running away to the shelter of a quiet library will cause you to miss a lot in life.
 
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rvictor

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I want to thank those who actually contributed intelligent material to this thread. I was looking to learn something but was instead, accused of "not believing" something that was said here or there, and the thread went anywhere but where I wanted it to go. I wanted to test my idea or theory out amongst people who know more than I in this area, and although I learned some useful stuff, I also learned that asking any type of question on a radio forum or posing a theory or idea is just not a good idea because everyone has a differing slant on what "the OP" said or meant, or whatever.

I'll stick to going to my public library from now on. It's no skin off your backs I'm sure, but the attitudes of most were horrible because they ran with their first perception instead of actually asking where I was going and why I had the idea or theory I had. Radio of any type in regards to hobbyism is about trying to learn whatever you can whenever you can.

I don't expect any of the negative attitudes will change because it's always assumed that someone who isn't a pro in the field or who isn't close to a number of pros in the field is just a worthless troublemaker and it's always assumed that if you are into radio that you should be expected to already know everything at some elite expert level.

I'm sorry I don't fit in with your pre-conceived notions. Actually, no I'm not...I have come to know people in this hobby who are more than willing to be helpful instead of trying to "set someone straight". Thanks once again to those of you who did come here to help me understand something.

If you truly had wanted to ask a question or pose a theory for discussion, your first post shows an amazing inability to communicate. I think it's more likely that you have now realized how ridiculous that post was and are trying to mitigate that by claiming that you were really just asking a question or raising material for discussion.

I think the library would be a could place for you to test your theories until you can better express your true intentions. Otherwise, you'll just continue to appear to be a troll.

Dick
 

57Bill

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Asking about "breaking encryption"

The library is fine, and this forum is fine for reading and doing searches. It's acceptable to post an answer to a question when you know the answer. Most questions, intelligent or not, are sure to get a number of smart-ass answers.
 

peepoop

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Motorola radios (the only ones I know about) can be configured to use DES, 3DES, or AES with key sizes up to 256 bits.

Forgein governments have rooms full of super-computers and mathematicians and they're not able to break AES 256 encryption. But you can?

This argument makes sense if you're assuming a brute-force approach is is involved, I agree. But it doesn't need to be so complex.

When HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were cracked by 'arnezami' their keys ware obtained through an exploit/bug in a Windows Blu-Ray player, not through some supercomputer genius feat of engineering.

If anything like this were to happen to P25 encryption it would more than likely start with a thorough examination and memory dump of an authorized P25 radio on an encrypted system. Anyone who has one of those is not likely to sacrifice their radio just to help a bunch of scanner listeners.
 

INDY72

Monitoring since 1982, using radios since 1991.
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Not to sound rude,... Just realistic here.. Agian that is a pipe dream... The technologies involved in Blu Ray and other such systems are nothing at all like the technologies involved in telecommunications systems. Please do the research on encryption in radio communications from the earliest WWII systems to the advanced 3DES, AES, and future technologies and youll very quickly see just how hard this "simple" task is. If these systems were so easy to "hack/crack/jack/break" then please show us factual information on it. Next youll say that using a laptop and a cellular phone you can open the SatComms systems for usage by a kid with tin cans and string. McGuyver isn't making new episodes, maybe for the next James Bond movie????
 
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