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Length of coax.

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SnowWalker

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A newbie here to base station CBs. I have a near 175 ft tree about 200 hundred feet from my home and was told I should mount my antenna on the top of that tree. That would mean about 240 feet of coax. Would this be a no go?

My stupidity will really show at times.
 

rescue161

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If I'm not mistaken, that would be 375 feet of coax.

At 5 Watts, 27 MHz and 375 feet of RG8 (9913), you'd get about 2.8 Watts at the antenna feed point.

With the same 240 feet of 9913, you'd get about 3.5 Watts at the antenna.
 

gewecke

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Throw up a 30' mast and call it a day. It would be a lot less feedline and less of a lightning target. Simpler is always better! :wink: 73, n9zas
 

JayMojave

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Hello SW: YEAH its all doable!

The long length of coax will have more insertion loss than a say usual 100 feet run of coax. But the increased antenna visibility and gain will more that make up for the added coax loss.

You may want to have a Metal or Nylon line supporting the coax coming down the antenna, at a angle.
Use RG8 or RG213 or LMR400 or 9913 the good stuff, will handle a gob of power.
Just un plug the antenna when a lightening storms hits.

Sounds B itchen....

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert
 

gewecke

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Hello SW: YEAH its all doable!

The long length of coax will have more insertion loss than a say usual 100 feet run of coax. But the increased antenna visibility and gain will more that make up for the added coax loss.

You may want to have a Metal or Nylon line supporting the coax coming down the antenna, at a angle.
Use RG8 or RG213 or LMR400 or 9913 the good stuff, will handle a gob of power.
Just un plug the antenna when a lightening storms hits.

Sounds B itchen....

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert
What do you think is going to happen to all that nice new expensive coax and antenna after its struck with tens of thousands of volts plus current? He'll definitely be *****in, about what he spent. Like I said ... simpler. :twisted: 73, n9zas
 

KC4RAF

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Gotta agree with the others Jay.

An antenna up in a tree, especially that high is asking for trouble. Thirty, maybe forty foot mast is a much better situation.
Not saying it can't be done, but it'll be lots of work, material, plus the added dangers.
 

JayMojave

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Hello SW and All: Yes using a 30 or 40 Foot mast would be the easy way to install a antenna. It might be a good call for a beginner to do so.

But this is the USA gentlemen. We do things above the rest, and constantly strive to improve things. We are B itchen people!

A good analogy is a mechanic at the local race track said to me once: Any one can get 250 HP out of a stock engine, but we know how to push it to 400 HP and keep it ah Hummin and ah Buzzin.

Haven't you guys drove up to a mountain top to get further out, and maybe that little100 watt Linear to help things out. Sure yeah have! We all have, or at least most of us......

Having the antenna at the top of a 175 foot would work great. I have had friends do this, install a antenna in tall trees and using just plan LMR400 Coax. The good thing is that they hired a professional climber to do all the antenna install, and never looked back. Then with a high antenna what great range and performance. I am sure they added a little linear soon after.

The lightening concern, you take your chances just like any other Ham or CB Antenna installation. Again you could just unplug the coax as previously mentioned and or install lightening protection.

So SW installing the antenna on top of a 175 foot will take some doing. You might want to use a mentioned shorter install first and then you can plan the 175 Foot install with some time if you like.

Before installing such a high antenna install Antenna and Coax will need to be tested first, no sense in installing stuff that don't work. Using a expensive climber.

Great question tho, I get a kick out of the doom and gloom the sky is falling responses.

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert No Freeway on/off ramp yet No International Airport yet No new jobs yet Good news is we got our 1000 yard shooting range up and running.....
 

wa1nic

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I am curious about exactly how you plan on putting an antenna on the top of a 175 foot tree.
 

KC4RAF

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You've posted a very valid question Rick.

I'm sure the OP wanted to keep the cost down so that he can spend more on the equipment. 175 foot tree is taller than what many ham and other CBers use in tower height. Plus the higher the antenna, more of lightning attraction, which holds true even with towers. I'm sure Jay has his reasons for his post, but for us old timers, we try to keep cost down, the added work later when we must climb to work on the antenna, etc.
But this is the CB thread and we, the hams, aren't liked for giving our thoughts. I guess we are the doom and gloom guys! lol (no offense toward you Jay!)


edit: KF4EYR, yes he's in British Columbia; and they may not have that much lightning up their way. But still, 175 foot tall tree is big...lol

And SnowWalker sorry your thread kind of turned south (a little off topic). We, the members, sometimes disagree with each other about how something should be done; so don't let that scare you away and not ask question sir. We all try to help in our own ways...
 
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SnowWalker

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Getting up the tree

My grandson is a professional arborist and climbs trees like a well trained monkey. He has mounted antennas on tree for several others.
 

gewecke

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I am curious about exactly how you plan on putting an antenna on the top of a 175 foot tree.
Exactly! There's reality, then there's fantasy. The probable loss alone after starting out with 4-5 watts by the time it gets to the antenna is unthinkable, assuming you got the antenna up there. :lol: 73, n9zas
 

AC9BX

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RG8 or RG213 or LMR400 or 9913 the good stuff...

RG8 isn't necessarily the good stuff, just bigger stuff. It has also become a generic name for cable that size although it really shouldn't be.
The RG designation stands for Radio Guide and the U designation stands for Universal, from old military specs.

Comparison of several .405" coax:
50MHz, loss in dB at 100feet (values are typically rounded to one decimal place, they could be a little more or less - not everyone provides a spec at 30MHz)
Belden 8237 - 1.3
Belden 9913 - 1.0
Belden 7810A - .9 (.88 exactly)
Times LMR-400 - .9 (.88 exactly)
JefaTech LL400 - .9 (.88 exactly) [my favorite, best for the money]
Andrew CNT400 - .9
CommScope WBC400 - .9 (obsolete, replaced by Andrew)
Generic RG8 - 1.4 give or take depending on manufacturer
Generic RG213 - 1.4 give or take depending on manufacturer

Flexible types typically have more loss.
 

mmckenna

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My grandson is a professional arborist and climbs trees like a well trained monkey. He has mounted antennas on tree for several others.

OK, so that's the hard part out of the way.

What you might be gathering from all this is that there's a cost vs. benefit thing you need to look at:

Costs:
Long run of cable will be expensive.
Risk of damage to cable.
Feed line losses are accentuated by the long cable length.
Lightning risk.
Difficult to maintain/repair the antenna system without calling in your grandson.

Benefit:
Higher might work better.
"Street Cred" factor, AKA bragging rights.

Since these frequencies will skip off the atmosphere, raising the antenna won't necessarily make it work better for talking long distances. On the other hand, it should give you really good local area coverage. Putting a good antenna up as high as you can will increase the direct line of sight "radio horizon". In other words, the amount of area your antenna can see is much greater being at that height.

Where you need to be careful is if you are going to put this much work into it, don't cut corners. Invest in good coax. Hobbyists love LMR-400 and many are under the impression its some sort of Holy Grail of coax. It isn't. It's halfway decent stuff, but pretty low on the list for commercial use.

Not sure what your budget is, but if you are going to put the work into this, you might want to invest in better coax now. Better coax will get more signal to AND from the antenna (it works both ways).
You can run some calculations here by inputing your cable length, power input and selecting various types of cable to see what it'll give you.

At 27MHz, Times Microwave will give you 1.581dB of loss over a 250 foot run. That translates into 4 watts coming out of your radio and 2.78 watts making it to the antenna.
LMR-600, which is a bit bigger, about 1/2" diameter, will have 1.0dB of loss, and give you 3.17 watts to the antenna.
LDF4-50A Heliax cable will have 0.848dB of loss, and about 3.29 watts out at the antenna end.

While going from 2.78 watts at the antenna to 3.29 watts at the antenna isn't going to make a huge impact, it does also help on the receiving side. In other words, you'll get a bit better reception.

What ever you install, you really want to make sure you support the cable correctly. The weight of 200 feet of cable pulling down will damage the connector and cable over time. I'd leave a loop at the top, and anchor it on it's way down, leaving some slack to allow for tree growth and movement.

If you really wanted to be different, feed the antenna with ladder line. It'll have even less loss.

Heck, while you are at it, have your grandson put a pulley and a length of line going up into the tree. Using a high tree like that to hoist up long wire antennas, dipoles, etc. would be pretty dang useful for other things, too.
 
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iMONITOR

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I have a near 175 ft tree about 200 hundred feet from my home and was told I should mount my antenna on the top of that tree.
I'm thinking no.
lightning-strikes-man.jpg
 

JayMojave

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Hello All SW and All: The math is correct as far as the coax loss goes, but if SW puts up a 5/8 wavelength antenna this will come close to make up for the coax loss, and the increased height will again gain more than a mere few dB in Coax Insertion loss. One needs to look at the range equation and see how insignificant a few dB in insertion loss as compared to antenna height.

The big concern is raising the antenna, it should be installed to a 20 foot mast or so, this will allow the antenna to attached to the tree with rope or line not killing the tree. And again needs to be tested before installation, Ten-4

If the Coax is brought down the tree say 50 feet or so, then it can be supported roughted down at a 45 degrees angle being supported by rope or line. Then connected to lightening ground protection / ground rods, coiled up at 3 feet diameter, connected to ground rods, and then to the house.

I hope SW installs such a antenna and posts photos. I can offer help.

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert

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