LNU Lightning Complex - Frequencies

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mlangeveld

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Command

NIFC C12 - 173.0375
NIFC C2 - 170.450
NIFC C8 - 169.5375
NIFC C9 - 170.0125
NIFC C26 - 172.550
(all linked together, 123.0 PL)

West Zone (Walbridge/Meyers Fires)

CDF T26
CDF T27
CDF T28
Air/Ground: CDF T24
Air Tactics: 165.000
Air/Air Rotary: 125.925

East Zone (Hennessey Fire)

VTAC 14
VFIRE 24
VFIRE 25
VFIRE 26
NIFC T1
NIFC T3
NIFC T5
Firing Group: CDF T30
Air/Ground: CDF T25
Air Tactics: 171.0375
Air/Air Rotary: 120.175
 

es93546

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Command

NIFC C12 - 173.0375
NIFC C2 - 170.450
NIFC C8 - 169.5375
NIFC C9 - 170.0125
NIFC C26 - 172.550
(all linked together, 123.0 PL)

West Zone (Walbridge/Meyers Fires)

CDF T26
CDF T27
CDF T28
Air/Ground: CDF T24
Air Tactics: 165.000
Air/Air Rotary: 125.925

East Zone (Hennessey Fire)

VTAC 14
VFIRE 24
VFIRE 25
VFIRE 26
NIFC T1
NIFC T3
NIFC T5
Firing Group: CDF T30
Air/Ground: CDF T25
Air Tactics: 171.0375
Air/Air Rotary: 120.175
I covered this in a little more detail in my post in the California wide pages. I noticed you did something that I almost did. You labeled Command 8 as a NIFC frequency pair. The Comm Plan in the IAP shows it as CDF Command 8, along with the frequencies 151.4450/159.3450 using RX TX Tone 2 - 123.0. When NIFC puts a system in they assign one tone to everything on the fire, including tacticals, but not for medical air to ground and National Air Guard. They have notes that all the NIFC repeaters are tied together, which includes the line for this Cal Fire command repeater.
 

mlangeveld

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I covered this in a little more detail in my post in the California wide pages. I noticed you did something that I almost did. You labeled Command 8 as a NIFC frequency pair. The Comm Plan in the IAP shows it as CDF Command 8, along with the frequencies 151.4450/159.3450 using RX TX Tone 2 - 123.0. When NIFC puts a system in they assign one tone to everything on the fire, including tacticals, but not for medical air to ground and National Air Guard. They have notes that all the NIFC repeaters are tied together, which includes the line for this Cal Fire command repeater.
It's NIFC C8 (169.5375). They made a mistake in the IAP and released a corrected version later.
 

es93546

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It wouldn't hurt to link to the sources, guys.

LNU Lightning Complex 2020 IAPs
I try to not do that. In the past I've used more than a dozen links, sort of hidden here and there and some where you could bring up a document without the password that a conventional source required. Then, after using these for several years, someone finds it and posts it. The link disappears within a week. I think I've experienced this at least 8-10 times. Yes, it can hurt to link to the sources.
 

Outerdog

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I try to not do that. In the past I've used more than a dozen links, sort of hidden here and there and some where you could bring up a document without the password that a conventional source required. Then, after using these for several years, someone finds it and posts it. The link disappears within a week. I think I've experienced this at least 8-10 times. Yes, it can hurt to link to the sources.
Huh?

The IAPs (and other pertinent information) which are posted on NIFC.gov ftp site are the official repository for up-to-date information on these incidents. Maps, evacuation orders, communications plans... all of it -- official and intended for public consumption. That is the intent of the NIFC ftp servers.

If some random agency has public-facing directories on a web server, that's one thing. But the topic at hand is the LNU Complex Fire frequencies, which are available at the NIFC ftp site in the IAP. Links to crap hidden here or there is not the topic here. Do you believe that the NIFC ftp server is some sort of secret stash??? Is there a special handshake I should know? lol
 

mlangeveld

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Huh?

The IAPs (and other pertinent information) which are posted on NIFC.gov ftp site are the official repository for up-to-date information on these incidents. Maps, evacuation orders, communications plans... all of it -- official and intended for public consumption. That is the intent of the NIFC ftp servers.

If some random agency has public-facing directories on a web server, that's one thing. But the topic at hand is the LNU Complex Fire frequencies, which are available at the NIFC ftp site in the IAP. Links to crap hidden here or there is not the topic here. Do you believe that the NIFC ftp server is some sort of secret stash??? Is there a special handshake I should know? lol
At the very top of the NIFC FTP home page: "This ftp service is intended for short-term interagency sharing, not as a file archive or records repository."

The ftp site is intended for consumption by fire agencies, not the public. I agree with es93546, widespread dissemination of the ftp links makes it more likely that the information will be moved elsewhere in the future.
 

Outerdog

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Respectfully disagree.

All information that is posted to ftp.nifc.gov must be:
  • Public: Information that is non-sensitive, unclassified, not copyrighted, and viewable by everyone.
If you two guys think you're on to some secret stash that wasn't intended to be public, then I don't know what to tell you. Besides, I'd hardly call a few clowns reading RadioReference to be "widespread dissemination". The average American doesn't have the attention span required to review a 45 page IAP.
 

mlangeveld

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Respectfully disagree.

All information that is posted to ftp.nifc.gov must be:
  • Public: Information that is non-sensitive, unclassified, not copyrighted, and viewable by everyone.
If you two guys think you're on to some secret stash that wasn't intended to be public, then I don't know what to tell you. Besides, I'd hardly call a few clowns reading RadioReference to be "widespread dissemination". The average American doesn't have the attention span required to review a 45 page IAP.
On some documents you will see "CONTROLLED UNCLASSIFIED INFORMATION". No one here is saying the ftp is a "secret stash". All we are saying is that YOU, by drawing attention to these controlled documents on an unprotected server, make it less likely that we will continue to have access to these documents in the future.
 

Outerdog

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unprotected server
How do you figure the server is unprotected? No login required does not mean unprotected.
YOU, by drawing attention to these controlled documents
I am not drawing attention to any controlled documents. Are you suggesting the IAP is a controlled document?

I guess I don't see the problem. The big ass heading that says "Public Access Folders" pretty much means that access to the information there is intended for anyone who cares to read it.

If you discover CUI on a public facing server, perhaps you should notify the originator so the problem can be corrected. Looking through the LNU folder, I'm not seeing any myself.
 

es93546

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Respectfully disagree.

All information that is posted to ftp.nifc.gov must be:
  • Public: Information that is non-sensitive, unclassified, not copyrighted, and viewable by everyone.
If you two guys think you're on to some secret stash that wasn't intended to be public, then I don't know what to tell you. Besides, I'd hardly call a few clowns reading RadioReference to be "widespread dissemination". The average American doesn't have the attention span required to review a 45 page IAP.
I respectfully disagree too. I'm a retired U.S. Forest Service employee. The federal government has come down hard on state websites that include federal frequencies. Take a look at the publically available FIRESCOPE communications guidelines, all the federal frequencies are redacted. Try to find a copy of Cal Fire's statewide load that lists a lot of federal frequencies, you can't find it anymore. NIFC has put out memos to state and local agencies saying that federal frequencies listed on state and local sites and documents are not to be released publically. There is direction stated that the files in the link you provided are not to save copies of IAP's there. Look at the federal incident files on there, I did. Not one of them has any IAP files. I found one or two over the past 2-3 years that someone filed there by mistake. They are gone the next day. When NIFC gets wind of Cal Fire having posted their IAP's and NIFC cache frequencies on the comm plan, I'm betting they come down on Cal Fire for it. The best way for NIFC to find this out is to post the link you did.

As a retired USFS employee who was involved in incident management, claim and personnel misconduct investigation and was a forest protection officer, I have sources to some documents. I would be pretty foolish to post these on Radio Reference. Nearly everything I get has this statement on it "FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY *The information is under Controlled, Unclassified Information//Basic." Other documents often say that "This information is not releasable under the FOIA." The FOIA is the federal Freedom of Information Act. I've been around this situation since 1974, my second season with the U.S. Forest Service. Since I've retired I read every dispatcher's annual workshop notes. Many have discussions regarding this very topic, directing those in the room to go home and check the access to every document that has federal frequencies on it. The state doesn't do the same thing, because their frequency use is on FCC licenses, which is completely, in all but some limited circumstances, public information. President Reagan made NTIA records unavailable to the public back in the early 80's. After 9/11 there has been increasing emphasis on not making federal frequency info available. I had links to get the Northwest GACC frequency directory for about 10 years. Some RR member posted those links, they were gone inside of a week. Now I can't get that directory anymore. It took a lot of time and work to find it in the first place. I had 4-5 similar links I had been using for many years, someone on RR posted them after they found them. They are all gone now.

You may not think that someone posting on Radio Reference does not get noticed by the powers that be. I disagree, it is the largest source of frequency info in the U.S. and in some places internationally. That and a few of my experiences, as stated above, give me a different perspective than you. I also worked for one of the NIFC partner agencies and visited NIFC for training.

The FTP website says what you says it does, but it also says: "This ftp service is intended for short-term interagency sharing, not as a file archive or records repository." When federal frequencies get posted on it they will disappear at some point. I can't remember a year when Cal Fire has used the NIFC system as much as it has this year. Once NIFC finds out there are likely going to be new guidelines for the site next year. NIFC built a super secure server that some USFS employees that qualify can access. This was being built around 2015-2018 as I remember. I think you will see all IAP links disappear from the FTP site.

I don't know what familiarity you have with the wildland fire agencies or NIFC. I'll bet mine is more extensive. I'm not saying that in a "mine is bigger than yours" way, I'm just saying my perspective is likely different than yours.
 
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es93546

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If you think NIFC intends to have federal frequency information on the FTP then scroll about and take a look at all the federal incidents. List how many of these have a link to IAP's. Go through all the GACC listings and every year while you are at it. Then get back to us, if you find one, just one, then just list it here, not as a link. I do this on a frequent enough basis to try to find oversights. I think I found one down in Arizona earlier this year, I think it's gone now. I think it was available over a 4 day period. That's why everyone of these is saved in my files. None of this discussion is going to help keep the oversights unnoticed, but I've lost so much access due to links being posted here, that I have to say something.
 

inigo88

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How do you figure the server is unprotected? No login required does not mean unprotected.

I am not drawing attention to any controlled documents. Are you suggesting the IAP is a controlled document?

I guess I don't see the problem. The big ass heading that says "Public Access Folders" pretty much means that access to the information there is intended for anyone who cares to read it.

If you discover CUI on a public facing server, perhaps you should notify the originator so the problem can be corrected. Looking through the LNU folder, I'm not seeing any myself.
Yes, the IAPs contain CUI, along with a lot of personally identifying information. Look harder.
 

norcalscan

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Two things regarding the FTP server.
  • Yes it is public. It's public because there comes a point on an incident where a password is a safety issue, or to negate the safety issue, is passed around far and wide and gets published anyway, negating the entire purpose of a password. It is technically a massive hurdle to rapidly disseminate incident documents to incident resources, every day, scattered in multiple locations geographically widespread, some with no phone capability, and keep it "protected" to where only the intended audience can read it. The openness is a byproduct of it's own popularity and efficiency to the incident.
  • Yes spreading the link can jeopardize access to the link. The servers are a finite resource with finite bandwidth. It needs to be available for the incident. Sure, we are not a huge additional load to the servers ourselves, but every time it's shared, is a higher risk that it inadvertently gets linked to some community facebook gossip group with 35,000 members all watching their neighbors to complain when the neighbor's dog craps on their lawn. That sudden load of FB karen's coming for the NIFC servers would make any sysadmin and netadmin shudder. A few of those and a new "secure" solution, no matter the cost, starts to get escalated to avoid this in the future. (for the fine print, don't make it become the next "it's why we can't have nice things." For the extra extra fine print, read "rapid expansion of streaming freaked out agencies to throw unlimited money at a solution that starts with the 5th letter of the alphabet.")
It's not about secrets, or control, or power plays etc. It's just being wise with a resource and minding our manners as guests on somebody else's system. You bet they have warnings everywhere saying it's Public Use. That's for them to remember we exist. It isn't some big welcome mat of entitlement.

Edit: The federal incidents don't have their IAP's published at all, and there is absolutely not a single thing different in their content vs the state IAP's we do see on the FTP. They have simply chosen that the benefit of keeping cellphones and frequencies "secret" is worth the tangible costs of reams and reams of paper and inherent inefficienies to putting the fire out in order to print out IAP's on an incident, and the intangible absolute safety FAILURE on incidents when resources can't get an IAP because "they ran out" at base. So an entire strike team is sharing one printed IAP (that's 20 firefighters and an overhead, in 6 vehicles) with knurled edges and sooted hand marks all over. My dept was just bit by this last week on the Loyalton fire on the Tahoe Forest. Not enough IAP's to go around, and a stunted comm load to boot. Almost shut the mission down.
 
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es93546

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In short, we get some occasional bursts of frequency information due to oversights and people in situations where there are more important issues for them to deal with. Pointing out these oversights causes these "loopholes" as you will, to be closed.
 

ecps92

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IT will become a Secret when the other regions begin to require passwords for the IAP's because the link got posted in a public forum

Huh?

The IAPs (and other pertinent information) which are posted on NIFC.gov ftp site are the official repository for up-to-date information on these incidents. Maps, evacuation orders, communications plans... all of it -- official and intended for public consumption. That is the intent of the NIFC ftp servers.

If some random agency has public-facing directories on a web server, that's one thing. But the topic at hand is the LNU Complex Fire frequencies, which are available at the NIFC ftp site in the IAP. Links to crap hidden here or there is not the topic here. Do you believe that the NIFC ftp server is some sort of secret stash??? Is there a special handshake I should know? lol
 

es93546

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One other thing that alerts NIFC and dispatch centers that a link has been posted is their ability to see who has opened the link and how many people have done so, based on a daily count. Normally, for many links, they will see government computes accessing the site, with just a few employees that are working on their personal home computers. The number of hits tends to go up and down each day. When they see a huge spike of hits from personal computers occur in a period of a few days, they know something is up. I've heard this from a USFS IT person. They might not know right away this spike is due to someone on Radio Reference posting it, but it gives them a clue that it is likely someone posted it somewhere on a public website.
 
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