LTR Analyzer released

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KD4YGG

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So cool!!!!!

Patiently awaiting LTR Passport support...

Happy Holidays
 
pro92b

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slicerwizard said:
I have seen references on the net to various uses for some of those invalid LCN's, so I'd rather not limit what the program can display. For systems that don't use any unknown extended functions, I could see adding a switch (either on the command line or with a keyboard code - or both) to disable the "unknown function" display.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, do you have any links to the references?

None of the dozens of systems here use any invalid LCN functions that I know of. I believe ID's 251-255 were intended for special functions but all I've ever seen used is 253 and 255. I do know that the CRC check in LTR is weak and it does false on just noise (no signal).

As I use the program more there seems to be two classes of unknowns reported. One message says 'invalid or unknown' and the other just 'unknown'. Those tagged 'invalid or unknown' are always bad data here and I'd like to be able to turn those off. The ones tagged just 'unknown' I'd like to leave turned on. Can you share the criteria you used to catagorize these two tags?
 
EricCottrell

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pro92b said:
That's interesting, do you have any links to the references?

None of the dozens of systems here use any invalid LCN functions that I know of. I believe ID's 251-255 were intended for special functions but all I've ever seen used is 253 and 255. I do know that the CRC check in LTR is weak and it does false on just noise (no signal).

As I use the program more there seems to be two classes of unknowns reported. One message says 'invalid or unknown' and the other just 'unknown'. Those tagged 'invalid or unknown' are always bad data here and I'd like to be able to turn those off. The ones tagged just 'unknown' I'd like to leave turned on. Can you share the criteria you used to catagorize these two tags?
Click to expand...

Hello,

The information I have seen mentions 240 and up for LTR and 225 and up for Multi-Net as special groups. One use is for Phone Patch.

255 is Idle. You will see it during repeater hang time and on the backup home channel of LTR-Net systems. Trident Microsystems controllers use 255 for CW ID as well. So a CW ID heard during 255 maybe an indication the LTR channel is tied to a Passport System. I have seen Regular LTR systems with no Passport tied to them use 255 for CW ID.

254 is used for LTR-Net CW ID.

253 is Regular LTR CW ID.

LTR-Net and other extended LTR systems that are backwards compatible with Regular LTR will use invalid Regular LTR parameters, like Home Repeater values above 20, for the extended functions. I think a Home Repeater value of 31 indicates a unkey of the unit transmitting with the Group ID indicating the group. I need to go through my notes.

I have also noticed some small differences in the way LTR controllers does things. Nothing that would cause problems with LTR Radios but maybe enough to figure out the controller used.

73 Eric
 
pro92b

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EricCottrell said:
Hello,

The information I have seen mentions 240 and up for LTR ...
Click to expand...

Several regular LTR systems here use 240-250 as ordinary group ID's. I recall that 251-255 is the special function range for regular LTR. This may have been in the patents but I don't remember for sure.

EricCottrell said:
255 is Idle. You will see it during repeater hang time and on the backup home channel of LTR-Net systems. Trident Microsystems controllers use 255 for CW ID as well. So a CW ID heard during 255 maybe an indication the LTR channel is tied to a Passport System. I have seen Regular LTR systems with no Passport tied to them use 255 for CW ID.
Click to expand...

I saw an instance of CW ID on 255 last night. LTR-Analyzer flagged it as unknown function.
 
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nd5y

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slicerwizard said:
If you record the audio (you can use Windows' Sound Recorder program) and post it here, I'll investigate.
Click to expand...
What is the best audio format for you? I can record .wav or amlost anything else with GoldWave.
 
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nd5y

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OK here are two audio samples with several data bursts.
One does not decode and the other shows
+ OSW: 0 18 18 255 18 77 IDLE LCN=18
I am using a PRO-2006 with the discriminator tap audio only going through a 10 uF cap, no buffers or resistors or anything.
 
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pro92b

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Here is the full log for a CW ID transmission on group 255.

Code: 
12/22/2007 16:38:44   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 07 36  IDLE  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:46   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:47   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:48   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:49   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:50   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:51   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:52   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:52   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:52   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:52   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:52   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:53   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:53   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:53   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:53   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:54   + OSW: 1 31 07 255 07 24  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:39:03   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 07 36  IDLE  LCN=7
 
EricCottrell

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pro92b said:
Here is the full log for a CW ID transmission on group 255.

Code: 
12/22/2007 16:38:44   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 07 36  IDLE  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 11 22  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 03 3B  Unknown function  LCN=7
12/22/2007 16:38:45   + OSW: 1 07 07 255 09 25  Unknown function  LCN=7
Click to expand...

Hello,

The first OSW is the typical idle message because the free repeater is the same as the home repeater. On the other OSWs the free repeater is different so any unit on this home repeater keying up will use another repeater. So this is likely a Trident Microsystems controller and maybe part of a Passport system. I found the Mashantucket Peqout Tribal Nation system has some frequencies that are used by both Passport and Regular LTR Radios and the CW IDs use 255. Passport uses a 16 bit group id and 65535 is the CW ID group.
http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=2674

If you search the old threads you can get the basics of Passport. The channels tend to have idle bursts of 2 to 4 seconds and uses a 68 bit data frame due to expanded and new data fields.

73 Eric
 
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nd5y said:
OK here are two audio samples with several data bursts.
One does not decode
Click to expand...
That one looks terrible. The amplitude of the low speed data is very small and the bursts don't contain enough data bits anyway (about 10 out of 40!). From what I can see, there is nothing there to decode.


and the other shows
+ OSW: 0 18 18 255 18 77 IDLE LCN=18
Click to expand...
That one has better amplitude, but it's still rather low. Are you using FM RX on a NFM signal? You might want to crank up the input volume control.
 
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slicerwizard

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pro92b said:
That's interesting, do you have any links to the references?
Click to expand...
Look for patent #6374115. It had some references.


As I use the program more there seems to be two classes of unknowns reported. One message says 'invalid or unknown' and the other just 'unknown'. Those tagged 'invalid or unknown' are always bad data here and I'd like to be able to turn those off.
Click to expand...
Added to version 1.2


The ones tagged just 'unknown' I'd like to leave turned on. Can you share the criteria you used to catagorize these two tags?
Click to expand...
Unknown function = OSW that looks similar to a known function

Invalid or unknown function = OSW that doesn't look similar to known function (usually has garbage in some fields)
 
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1.2 crashes for me the first time it trys to decode anything. 1.1 works great.
Jim
 
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Sofar 1.2 work good here.
I am using a tapped pro92 to do the work. The modulation is around 60 to 80 and the ltr modulation is around 20.If I go any higher the program goes into a overdriven state.
I am running the program on a worst case situation since the LTR system I am scanning is a narrowband system plus I am on a hill side facing away from its location.
 
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slicerwizard said:
That one looks terrible. The amplitude of the low speed data is very small and the bursts don't contain enough data bits anyway (about 10 out of 40!). From what I can see, there is nothing there to decode.



That one has better amplitude, but it's still rather low. Are you using FM RX on a NFM signal? You might want to crank up the input volume control.
Click to expand...

I tried different audio levels, line in, mic, etc. and there are just some home channels that I can't decode data bursts on but long transmissions work just fine. I can even get partial decodes on distant repeaters that are too weak to open the squelch.
 
pro92b

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EricCottrell said:
Hello,

The first OSW is the typical idle message because the free repeater is the same as the home repeater. On the other OSWs the free repeater is different so any unit on this home repeater keying up will use another repeater. So this is likely a Trident Microsystems controller and maybe part of a Passport system. I found the Mashantucket Peqout Tribal Nation system has some frequencies that are used by both Passport and Regular LTR Radios and the CW IDs use 255. Passport uses a 16 bit group id and 65535 is the CW ID group.
http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=2674

If you search the old threads you can get the basics of Passport. The channels tend to have idle bursts of 2 to 4 seconds and uses a 68 bit data frame due to expanded and new data fields.

73 Eric
Click to expand...

The company that runs this system does have a wide area Passport system here so it is likely a Trident controller. This particular system appears to be LTR regular only since the idle bursts are 10 seconds apart and the log shows 6 to 7 regular LTR OSW's per second. That would leave no time for Passport OSW's.
 
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